Take one minute to think about this

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

Prove to me that this man had no access to a shelter. DO NOT post crap about how shelters are bad places. Do they provide the basic means of survival or not?

quite a lot of preassumptions on your side, eh? You seem to know more about the story's event than even we over here, and the author of the article, and the police.

On paper it all is nice and well, you know. Just that in practice and reality - things often look very different, more complex, more difficult.

I will NEVER steal. Therefore I am in the clear to make such a statement.

Crystal clear. But you will steal at one time, my friend. Your misery just needs to be big enough. If you are up to decide wether to steal something to eat, or start the third week in sequence with nothing to bite and red circles before your eyes, and you don't obey your human nature at that point, you would be a stupid.

And let'S see what has come of your values once you had been 10 years a homeless, and being treated like a non-existing nothing by people - at best.

Maybe a shelter was not available. maybe it had closing hour already gone by. Maybe he did not know where to search. Maybe he already was too cold. Or had lost all hope. Or had fear, was ashamed, was afraid. Or was mentally derranged, or drank too much alcohol to stay warm. Or he was too hopeless or stubborn or to proud to ask for help - homeless people get looked down on all day long - if being looked at at all. Maybe his life has been like that since too long. There are a million reasons possible why this guy not headed for a shelter. And only a computer's processing can prove to be unable to understand these, and stick to nill-one-logic only.

Of a human witnesses, of course some more than just logic must be expected. Because what else makes humans human, and different to primitive animals reflex-automatisms?

You expect to be homeless yourself soon. But that is a description with many facettes and possible fates behind the label. As long as your socks and the skin and nails of your feet have not grown together so that only a doctor with a scalpel can seperate the two and in the process must remove greater parts of your feet's skin and upper layers of flesh since the textile has been grown into the flesh and in parts is totally surrounded by it, as long as you do not know how ashamed people can be to accept medical treatment for free because they know they haven't changed underwear since one and a half year or more, you can talk easy about the dignity in being a homeless.

Stop expecting people to behave like computers. Man is man, not some piece of digital logic-code always following the rule of what is "reasonable". Everybody working in any social-oriented profession or job, knows that, from the hospital-doctor to the streetworker. Where they do not learn this, they fail in their jobs miserably. and people only acting by the law of reason - are capable of the most cruel and inhumance crimes imaginable.

In the end I get the imprssion that some of the things that got said in this thread, are only to avoid any irritation reagrding the tools and means of luxurious christmas - by rationalising an individual's unwelcomed fate away. for the religious crowd here, christmas marks the birthday of the Christ, that is the major point in it - not the marketing show the muppets made of it. So see if you can bring your grim fingerpointing regarding this homeless man into conformity with what Christ has taught regarding "love thy next like you love thyself" and what he lived by his own example when sitting together with the pariahs of society of his time when having a meal. After all, he is your religious icon, so the obligation is with you - for me he only was a wise mind like many others, and I am free to agree with him or not. So think of it and see if you are in conformity with him when you act by cold reason only and demand the law's full range to rule over the suffering (deserved or not) of a fallen man - or sink christmas altogether. That at least would be honest by you, then. Those of you being without guilt - throw the first stone. Ideally at christmas day - that would be the best of all timings.

[StdDev]

Zackstar.. are you in earnest?
I am not belitteling your viewpoint (I dont agree with it) but this all sounds too much like a character we all have heard of...

Originally Posted by Zachstar

Well here is the thing. Usually in civilized countries there are shelters to aid the homeless and get them back on their feet. Some .gov funded some private (church) this man should have gone to the police and asked for directions to the nearest shelter.

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."

Originally Posted by Zackstar

Because my money is better spent supporting fusion development so that we can take the oil question out of of the economic situation so that maybe this man can find a newly formed job when the economy soars and housing prices become more reasonable.

Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas, and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there."

Originally Posted by Zackstar

I will speak for myself saying that if there is truely no way to get to the shelter and the local police have turned me away. Then I would rather die in the cold with my honor than steal and make some bullcrap excuse about it.
If he had died in the cold without stealing then he dosent have to face another day of the horrid world of no shelters or help that supposedly yall seem to be making this out to be.

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. ... It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!"


A lot of simalarities...

Anyways.. the man took a jacket and a snappy hat.. probably to save his life... but that too can be argued..
I dont know the stats for German "homeless" condition, but they are probably close to as they are here.. and probably everywhere....
Many homeless people have psychological issues.. ie many of them dont have a full load upstairs.
It is very likely that he can not make these rational descisions on what is right and wrong or noble vs immoral.. he was cold and needed some relief of that condition.

[TteFAboB]

The mother of a friend has been feeding and assisting homeless people every single day, for decades now, even as she enters into her 90's. You just have to find the needle in the haystack.

Of course you don't have to steal to feed yourself, unless you're in North Korea. Skybird's hypothetical scenario of going three weeks without food is absurd. If a homeless guy spent his days ringing door bell by door bell begging for food he will get food before three weeks go by. Or winter clothes. A few more weeks and he may find a job, even if only a pretext to justify monetary aid.

[DeepIron]

@StdDev... excellent analogy and comparison.

Being homeless is never NEVER an excuse.You do not steal! You stay on the move. Doing what you can to get work, to find shelter, to survive.

Pointless answer because you'll probaby never be faced with the same decision... and you just contradicted yourself "... to survive."

He did what he needed to survive.

In Anchorage, where I used to live, the homeless people would go downtown to the city center where the Christmas Tree was located. They would pull strings of lights from the branches and stuff them under their coats to keep warm through the night. In the morning, they placed the strings of lights back on the tree. I worked at radio station across the street and saw this with my own eyes.

I guess, applying Zackstar's argument, they should have been arrested for stealing electricity...

[Fish]

Originally Posted by spooka 2

I just started here at Subsim.com, and I don't want to make anyone angry with me but, the arcticle says that he borrowed the clothing.

Spook, some of the regulars here shoot first and never ask questions.
Do not steal there threads.

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

@StdDev... excellent analogy and comparison.

Actually DIron.. it was your first post that brought this to my attention.. I could tell it was tongue in cheek when you posted.. but Zackstar's post .. well it is not apparent that he is joking.. but it is such a close adherence to the Dickens script that it could well be a put on.

Oh well.. another thing that comes to my mind is.. why did Skyboid post this in the first place.. was he angling?

God bless us... every one!

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by spooka 2

It certainly was not my intention to steel a thread. Some(Chock, August) have told me that it was OK to voice my opinion. If I stepped on anyones toes I apologize and will rethink my participation here.

Spooka.. dont fret bout it none.. The "steal the thread" remark sounded pretty "tongue in cheek" to me..
Ya gotta remember.. most these guys are not quite serious when they post (Skybird is major exception!).. and Chock.. he is above "tongue in cheek".. he is all the way up to "sarcastic bastige" (thats why I like reading Chocks posts!! )

You will come to learn.. sarcasm is an ART FORM!!

[Fish]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Probably the most pathetic statment I have read yet from Skybird. All i see is atheist demanding that Christmas be canceled. Yet, one Atheist pretends this is not happening.

Skybirds fantasy land continues.

-S

Me and my family, 10 atheists, like christmas, no problem. Time to get together.
We have Sint Nicolaas here too, 5 december. Al atheist (61 % in the Netherlands) have a great time then, giving presents.

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by spooka 2

Ya gotta remember.. most these guys are not quite serious when they post (Skybird is major exception!).. Why is this?

Well it's hard to say.. Skybird just seems a fairly serious person.. maybe it's because he has a harder time detecting irony/sarcasm because English is not his native language.. then again maybe he is just more serious.

@ Skybird.. hey.. your English is infinitely better than my Deutsch..
Ich meinte kein Vergehen!

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

So in his "Free Will" he steals and we are supposed to accept it?

L

O

L

:rotfl:

You know the guy? Perhaps he is a simple person. Try to be human.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by spooka 2

[and will rethink my participation here.

Please stay, people like you are very welcome.

[DeepIron]

@Spooka 2: hey dude, just get in there and throw punches like the rest of us...
Sometimes it's serious, sometimes it't not... after you get to know the regular denizens of this swamp, you'll be able to tell when and which... no worries...

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by spooka 2

I am a bit spooked (play on words:rotfl about this skybird guy. Is he that bad?

Skybird isnt bad.. he is just..ummm.. well.. he is just Skybird!
There is no one to be afraid of on these boards.. specially if you run into that miscreant Neal... guy acts like he owns the joint.... oh wait.....

[Fish]

Originally Posted by spooka 2

I am a bit spooked (play on words:rotfl about this skybird guy. Is he that bad?

No, he isn't, just read some of his posts. It will take some time but it's worthy.

[DeepIron]

specially if you run into that miscreant Neal... guy acts like he owns the joint.... oh wait.....

He does... just for clarification. Neal is the Big Kahuna and those so foolish as to mess up his mojo get consigned to THE BRIG.