Just what is going on in the world!

[Skybird]

This racist that I am meant that he had not seen many occasions when the situation ruled to trust others: effectvely when we could not handle a prsent issue all by ourselves.

You may be true when saying the Quran is as violant as the Tora or Old Testament, I don't care for these. But you hide the important difference: that in the Western culture as well as the churches, no one is depending on the old "eye for and eye" principle anymore, and the self-understanding of modern Christians is not defined by the sex, drugs and rock'n roll chapters of the old testament anymore, and that Jesus went beyond the teaching of the old scriptures and very much ended their tradition, that'S why he is called the bearer of glad tidings. You talk about the past, "my friend". On the other hand, such a developement has not taken place in Islam, the Quran was and is the basis of Islamic self-understanding, therefore it got locked in the thinking pattern and knowledge-horizon of over a millenium ago. Could you show me a western nation that is ruled accopridng to the ancient laws descrobed in hte early parts of the Old Testament? Hardly. Could you show me a Western nation where religion and poltiics is not ruled to be strictly independeant from each other by constitutional law and order? Hardly.

And now this little racist over here scratches your dirty little name off his to-be-replied-list of names. For my taste your tongue is a little bit too loose in calling people phobic of these idologies, and racist concerning other people. You attack individual people. I talked about heart and core of an ideology. Think about that important difference before you offend foreign people the next time by labelling them as racists, laserbrain.

[Penelope_Grey]

Originally Posted by RedMenace

How can a fear of Islam be in any way rational? That's like being afraid of 1/6th of the world population. That's like being afraid of the sky.

I'm afraid of Islam because I nearly got blew up in the name of it. Simple as.

[Enigma]

I stood at the base of the smoldering towers, and a good friend and Navy man was killed while eating his breakfast at his desk job in the Pentagon. It does have an effect on you, and on how you see the world, and how you interpret others....but I'm not afraid of Islam. I'm afraid of crazy people. Theres enough crazy christian whites in this country to kill many many people in the name of any great myth, and have done so.

Fear crazy in all its forms.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

I'm afraid of Islam because I nearly got blew up in the name of it. Simple as.

You should not fear it as that is what they want.

I could had been a victim of the IRA bandstand bomb in London back in 1981/2 I was there the day before it went off. As a school kid we reacted in a typical school kid manor, as an adult I found it to be unnerving.

[Enigma]

I could had been a victim of the IRA bandstand bomb in London back in 1981/2 I was there the day before it went off. As a school kid we reacted in a typical school kid manor, as an adult I found it to be unnerving.

I can relate....

Having grown up in the UK, my father came very close on more than one occasion to being blown up by the IRA in london, or killed in the Kings Cross fire...

It wasn't until I lived through 9/11 as an American citizen that I looked at those days in the 80's in London and recognized the danger, and how lucky I was to have my Father in one piece. 9/11 produced tons of memoriess of being a kid and not really understanding how and why things were as they were in London at that time, but as an adult, I think of my Mother waiting to find out if Dad was ok after a bombing, and it sends chills down my spine.

I wish I still had a childs eyes sometimes.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

I'm afraid of Islam because I nearly got blew up in the name of it. Simple as.

You must try harder to understand Islam's holy wisdom when trying to dominate your society, or even kill you. According to the Damast epigraph on his grave, Saladin (Sahaladdin) "cleaned the earth from the dirt of the infidels", and once after a battle won, he told his followers that he would pay each of them a certain ammount of money if they grab themsleves a prisoner and kill him in the presence of Sahaladdin. And that is what happened for the rest of the day, a fresh and funny beheading party, and every head falling was payed for with a handful of coins, and many of the soldiers and clerics alike on that day earned themselves a fortune.
Saladin also is seen as an icon of Islam, for he mercilessly enforced the rule of Sharia inside Muslim community, and enforced the totalitarian rule of Islamic dogma, he is also responsible for the killing of many promising "reformers" and "alternative thinkers" that tried to analyse or transcend Muslim dogma, most famous victim was the mystic Surawardhi, who was killed in the late 12th century. Saladin was called the ruler with the iron fist (sounds familiar if comparing to some contemporary disctators, maybe?) , and all thisbrutal stuff made Saladin very popular in Islam until today. He is seens as a hero, and not despite but because of his deeds he is seen like that.

It is not acceptable that you do not see the religious side in dirt like you being blown up, Penelope. Instead you are expected to hail Sahaladdin as a prime example of tolerance and cultural coexistence, like so many idiots in the West use to do, including most famous examples of Goethe ("Eastern Diwan") and Lessing ("Nathan"), in both men's writings he is turned into almost a saint that has nothing to do with the grim historical facts). Voltaire was once like that, too, but later seem to have understand what it was he was so well-meaning about, and since then he had no more friendly, but highly unfriendly words only for Islam (different to Goethe and Lessing, Voltaire illustated by that that he was a racist... )

You should be thankful if one day the task of blowing you up will be successful, penelope, because without dirt like you the earth necessarily will be a cleaner place. You must work on your wellmeaning and tolerance, or do you want to die as an ignorrant "racist"?

[Sarcasm off]

Enigma and Steed are right, fear craziness in all it'S forms, but fear shall not become commander of your deeds and actions. Fear can make you see that it's red alert, but beyond that it is a bad advisor. Meet Islam with unforgiving determination and an uncompromised demand of reciprocity, because it will find and exploit every weakness of yours, no matter how long it takes, and is driven by that belief that it only would be for the best of all mankind if all mankind is submitted and dominated by islam. Stepping back, and an obedience that is hurrying on ahead while mistaking this to be "tolerance" is not an option. That is the Islamic understanding of "peace": the absence of anything that could ask unwelcomed question about Islam and question it's self-perception while tolerance means (historically) a status of discriminatory and humiliating submission (which is a formulated demand in scripture). Needless to say that this has nothing to do with our understanding of peace and tolerance.

All what I said does not mean that you cannot meet a Muslim person whom is in favour of Wetsern liberties and vlaues, and is a friendly guy and a good buddy. The qustion you should ask is only this: is he really fully aware of the details of his faith he claims to be his own, or is it that he maybe just has created his own private representaion of something that in this form nerver existed, does not existed, and has nothign to do with the Islam as ruled by Muhammad and descriobed in Quran and Hadith/Sharia? Is he aware of the contradictions and collisions in details between Islam and Western lifestyle and indentiy and ethics, or does he just gloss over them?

A study in Britain some months ago found over one third of the muslim community finding violence acceptable if it helpts to piush Sharia in Britain (over the half amongst the young men) . In Germany'y Berlin, more than half of the turkish schoolboys openly support honour-killing in the name of sharia and Turkish identity, and over one third of the turkish girls agreeed, too. Thrpoughout Germany, Muslim communities try to enforce their presence in areas and regions where no Muslim lives and where 90% and more of the local residnets tell them they do not want them to build a mosque in their part of the city. Islam has not the smallest buzsines dthere, but claims the right to enforce it'S presence within communites that do not want it. It does not take any respect for the wishes of the residents. It is about pushing through a principle - that westerns must step back in the face of Islam. We are expected t learn that we need to give ground, that we are not allowed to resist, that it all is Islam's roght top claim all and everything, everyhwere, even against the total opposition of local population where not a single muslims lives.

Since three months, I work in a citizen's action group that is fighting against a muslim community here that has bought additional ground around it's mosque by making wrong statemnts about the identity of the buyer, and the intended use. Tjhe former owner agreed to the deal by the explicit condition that the groudn shall not be given further to the mosque and being sued to increase it. But they want to increase the mosque at all costs, in a section of the city that consists of only one-family houses, and is not a bit Muslim at all. Islam has not the smallest cause in that part of the city, nothing. The present mosque already caused confrontations, and residents there repeatedly got intimidated and offended. The court case is about document forgery, pretending of false facts, manipulating the deal and betrayal. their speaker even had the nerve to say that if they would not have done this, how they would have been able then to push through the increasing of the mosque? What is most depressing is - that the judge so far has not refused that logic. We are thinking about putting a file of objection on the grounds of suspected bias. You see, no matter how much trouble it causes, and how much confrontation - Islam must be pressed through, even against the opposition of the infidels that once were the owners of their homes.

BTW, we are all racists. Islamophopbic anyway. And probabaly also paranoid.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Enigma

I can relate....

Having grown up in the UK, my father came very close on more than one occasion to being blown up by the IRA in london, or killed in the Kings Cross fire...

Strange, all of my experience of terrorism is from the other side. Stopped on the roads, interrogated, body-searched, guns pointed every which way. Most of that from those in service of the Queen. Never been near a bomb going off, yet lived next door to bombers. Weird.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by RedMenace

How can a fear of Islam be in any way rational? That's like being afraid of 1/6th of the world population. That's like being afraid of the sky.

Here are some reasons:

You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.

Originally Posted by RedMenace

I'd say I know a fair-bit about Islam, and honestly, the Qur'an is as peaceful/war-like as any religious text.

Still beleive that?

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Here are some more good ones - it looks like beating your wife up is OK as long as they do not agree with you - which means, like why would you want to beat her up anyway if she agreed with you in the first place? :

The men are made responsible for the women, ** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm. I guess if you are Christian or Jew, that is a bad thing - unless you pay retribution of course:

The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

Just reading this Quran is making me sick.

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

I have often found that if you want to make and keep friends, never talk of politics and religion.

[Penelope_Grey]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I have often found that if you want to make and keep friends, never talk of politics and religion.

ain't that the gospel truth, pardon the pun. :rotfl:

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I have often found that if you want to make and keep friends, never talk of politics and religion.

In the months of my absence from this forum I stumbled (was invited) into a non-public forum without realising that it was an ultra-hardcore white nazi forum. I did not realise it, since we exchanged friendly phrases and common stuff only on which to agree you really must not be an extremist of any kind. But when they thought they were sure of mine we started with certain political themes - and the masks fell down.

Sometimes it is very good to talk about politics and religion - nothing makes you aware any faster what kind of type you are talking to and what he is about, and if you really would like to make him your friend and keep up the friendship - or better avoid that at all costs. Not every stranger you meet in a forum you want to call a friend.

To my defense I must make it clear that I fired a broadside and left that forum of theirs immediately.

[RedMenace]

Skybird, I apoligize if I had offended you, I admit my tounge might have been a bit sharp, but you must understand, when you say that Islam is a dangerous religion in itself, I find that odd, for I have met maybe hundreds of Muslims in my lifetime, and not one of them ever went for my throat.

I do not deny that Muslim extremists exist, that would be ridiclious to deny such a fact, but you must understand that extremists make up the tiniest minority of Muslims, the tiniest tiniest minority. The problem is, these extremists are also the loudest. They don't speak with words or letters, but with bombs and weapons.

That's why this Islamophobia disgusts me, you are GIVING in to what the extremists want, they want you to fear Islam, they want you to hate Islam. But 99.9% of Muslims are normal people, its that 0.1% that you should hate.

[fatty]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Qur'an stuff

Oh please. There are equally disconcerting passages in the Old and New Testaments. I don't see the majority of Christians forbidding their women to speak in church (1Cor 14:34), why would you expect the majority of Muslims to crucify disbelievers?

Originally Posted by RedMenace

...you are GIVING in to what the extremists want, they want you to fear Islam, they want you to hate Islam.

Yep! It builds the support base for the real bad guys.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by RedMenace

Skybird, I apoligize if I had offended you, I admit my tounge might have been a bit sharp, but you must understand, when you say that Islam is a dangerous religion in itself, I find that odd, for I have met maybe hundreds of Muslims in my lifetime, and not one of them ever went for my throat.

I do not deny that Muslim extremists exist, that would be ridiclious to deny such a fact, but you must understand that extremists make up the tiniest minority of Muslims, the tiniest tiniest minority. The problem is, these extremists are also the loudest. They don't speak with words or letters, but with bombs and weapons.

That's why this Islamophobia disgusts me, you are GIVING in to what the extremists want, they want you to fear Islam, they want you to hate Islam. But 99.9% of Muslims are normal people, its that 0.1% that you should hate.

I accept your apology. No need to talk about it again.

No, I am not fooled by extremists. You hear little from me about the terror of extremists. Terror itself is not what could brake or threaten our societies. The damage is done by the medias hyoping the hysteria around it.

But I talk about the ideology. The violence in Islam is not there despite Islam's teachings, but because of it's teachings. It is a very grim, unforgiving, and aggressive "religion", tailored to religiously excuse ongoing "conquest" and at that time back then, to bolster Muhammad's personal power and position. The history of Islam is not so aggressive because it violates it's teachings, but because it honours them. Even at Muhammad's lifetimes Muslims already attacked other Muslims for not being Muslim enough. Later this excuse was further perverted to justify the slave trading in northern Africa - Muslim slave traders were the most brutal of all times.

Compare that to the Western history, were wars and violence were not ordered or justified by Jesus (Muhammad called for around 60-70 wars and tribal attacks during his lifetime, committed mass murder and genocide, ordered murder of personal critics, already had slaughtered men before he appeared the first time as a Kahin on the stage, and traded prisoners like goods - later in the medieval some Muslim rulers used the skulls and skeletons of infidel enemy as material to build towers and walls), but were done in explicit violation of the Christian message. when considering this, how can you seriously tell people Islam is as peaceful as any other religion? When you consider the character and deeds of the historical Muhammad, how can you say his heritage is a message of peace to the world? Muhammad last but not least spread his influence on the Arabian peninsula by intimidation, bloodshed and terror! His own secretaries repeatedly fled from him to save their lives when noticing certain details that indicated how very much Muhammad was lieing to the people when telling them about Allah! That initially he may have been motivated by wanting to overcome the grown social injustice and communal tension that came as a consequence of the growing privileges of the monopole-like position of the Qurayish cannot hide that he became a murderous gangster in the later times.

What is considered to be Christianity, not only had the old testament, but as a consequence of Jesus' appearing there is the new testament as well. Compared to that, Islam has no new testament, it is stuck with the blood-dripping Violante old testament exclusively. It also knows no figure that compares to the revolutionizing importance that Jesus had for the Christians (and "founding" Christianity so to speak: no Christ, no Christianity). The medieval church tried to suppress with fire and sword any kind of heresy or thinking that could endanger its political and earthly interests and power ambitions, but after some time it more and more had to give ground to the development of Western reason, Western philosophy, there was the influence of the Renaissance and age of enlightenment. ISLAM NEVER HAD COMPARABLE DEVELOPMENTS! It is stuck where the Christian church was - in the medieval. That is because it was far more successful in keeping those ways of doing alive by which both Islam and churches in the beginning tried to fight heresy and secure their power status: the overwhelming majority of possible reformers, promising alternative thinkers, people wishing to develop and modernise the Islamic dogma - got murder, arrested or executed.

And while all this unfold and remained until the present, you see a constant ongoing ethnically cleansing in territories that are held by Islam. In all Muslim nations, foreign religions and cultural representation from abroad is declining since centuries. In all nations there is sometimes more, sometimes less pressure put onto Christian or Jewish communities. Never, nowhere, these communities were increasing (with the exception of the Jews fleeing into the Ottoman empire and being welcomed only because they brought the knowledge about the superior western weapon technology with them). While you are forbidden to carry a bible in your suitcase when visiting Saudi Arabia, Islam aggressively pushes into the West, claiming rights for itself that it refuses to others.

I had written longer essays, even separately posted texts of up to 25 pages about the creation and development of the Quran and Hadith, the problems the introduction of "ideosynkritische" punctuation brought to these texts and prevented any kind of "authenticity", and on other details of Islamic history like for example it's understanding of law and values completely colliding with our Western values and communal structures ordered by our constitutions (which base on completely different set of basic ethical and moral preconditions to which Islamic moral is simply this: hostile), so please understand that I do not write all this stuff again (forum members would lynch me for trying that, btw.).

There were some Germans who initially fell for the Nazis without realising how evil an ideology it was. They only saw the positive things in it: Hitler created new jobs, the youth was caught by the youth organisations and their weekend activities which was about adventurous expeditions into the forest, there was a promise of national pride again. nothing wrong in that if only Hitler would have left it to this. Such Nazis were a problem, and were not: They were are a problem because by being fooled and blinded they actively supported the Nazi regime, or had sympathies for it - lacking insight into the regime does not spare them from their share of responsibility, imo. They were not a problem in that they were no perpetrators by conviction, no evil" people. They were stupid maybe, or blind, and later did not wish to admit the nature of Nazism for not having to admit that they were guilty to some serious degree. - But do these people change the general evil nature of Nazism? I ask this with regard to what westerners call "moderate Muslims". I must remind you that many of the hate preachers, "fundamentalists" and activists of today - do not leave the ground of Islamic teaching and scripture when they fire their tirades against us. whereas the way of relaxed living of scaled moderate, Western Muslims is not what Muhammad has ordered people to do. You will find it hard to find justifications in the Curran why western democratic open societies and Muhammadanism could be regarded as compatible. the grim truth is that those you call extremists are more representative for Islam than those Westernized Muslims who had soften up their faith so much that in earlier times they would have been in danger of being accused and maybe killed by their own communities.

I was alonger while in Turkey, and Iran. Outside the Western-style cities and tourist traps, in the poor countryside, I found Islam like it really is meant by Quran and Hadith and Sharia. It is very much alive, accumulating more and more power and pressure, and it is grim, very grim. True Islam has nothing to do with the well-meaning illusions so many westerners have. even many Muslims are not having a complete picture of their religion. For example they do not know that as Muslims in Muslim countries they are not free but have an unavoidable obligation to treat dhimmis, people of the book (Jews and Christians) in a discriminating, intentionally humiliating way in order to make them feel humiliated and humbled and inferior. they also do not know that they are not free to choose if they wish to engage in active fighting against us infidels, or not. But as a matter of fact the Quran defines it as an obligation, and Muhammad named the hesitant ones as fools that only fear death and killing because they do not know what really is good for themselves. "Moderate" Muslims refusing to do so - are violating their faith. You see, this is just as an example why I do speak about the ideology, not the individual man. In Islam, Quran and Hadith are an authority that is non-negotiable, undiscussable, the uncompromised centre of authority. That both are not authentic, have been changed millions of times, have been manipulated and tailored by many, does not change that they are perceived as if the quran has been coming directly from Allah, "as is". In the end it all is not about quran, which was caused by Muhammad, or Hadith, which was caused by Muhammad, or Allah, who was identified and defined by Muhammad - in the end it all focuses on Muhammad as the the centre and origin of all Islam. That's why I call it Mohammedanism, like the academical tradition also often did until some decades ago.

This criticism of Islam is as much racist as would be criticism of Neonazis be called racist. I can only say it with - i think it was - Voltaire: "Islam is the most stupid of all religions", and I would add: "it is also the by far most aggressive and dangerous one".

This is a selection of (German) literature that I have given earlier before, in one of those longer essay. I would recommend these for a beginning, especially the books by Raddatz, if you happen to understand German.
Some of the books are available in English as well. Reading the itself Quran should be supported by an academical, competent analysis to make you aware of the inner contradictions and contradicting statements that are sometimes separated not only by paragraphs and pages, but whole chapters (Suras). A novice can easily jump them and never learn about them that way. for example it is said at one position that Muslims are forbidden to commit suicide. This quote then is given as an example that the quran prohibits suicide attacks and this terrorism cannot be seen as representative for Islam - Islam is not guilty and responsible for terror. Wrong! Because at another position Muhammad explicitly encourages, excuses and demands that fighters shall not fear to get killed if only they fight against the infidels, for heavenly pleasure will be theirs in paradise. Islam very well permits and excuses suicide attacks - I would even conclude it demands them just one example of a pattern that repeats itself over and over again. Only a public not knowing about such things can be deceived by that. Which unfortunately is the case.

Literature:



Bürgel, Johann: - Allmacht und Mächtigkeit: Religion und Welt im Islam. 1991

Deschner, K.-H.: - Das Christentum im Urteil seiner Gegner. (Islam-relevant chapters). 1986

Goldziher, Ignaz: - Muhammedanische Studien 1+2, 1971 (a standard work and must-read)

Lewis, Bernard: - Die Welt der Ungläubigen, 1983 (Lewis is another most essential author)
- Die politische Sprache im Islam. 1991
Nagel, Tilman: - Staat und Glaubensgemeinschaft im Islam, Band1, 1981
- Geschichte der islamischen Theologie, 1994
- Die islamische Welt bis 1500. 1998
Raddatz, Peter: - Von Gott zu Allah? Christentum und Islam in der liberalen

Fortschrittsgesellschaft. 2001
- Von Allah zum Terror? Der Djihad und die Deformierung des Westens. 2002
- Allahs Schleier – Die Frau im Kampf der Kulturen. 2003
Scholl-Latour, Peter: - Kampf dem Terror – Kampf dem Islam? Chronik eines
unbegrenzten Krieges. 2002
Tibi, Bassam: - Kreuzzug und Djihad. Der Islam und die christliche Welt. 2001

- Die Krise des modernen Islam: Eine vorindustrielle Kultur im wissenschaftlich- technischen
Zeitalter. Islamischer Fundamentalismus als Antwort auf eine doppelte Krise. 2000