US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

[Skybird]

His new deodorant





Tagesspiegel. By Struttmann.

[August]

I've seen more than one similar accusation here.

The Myth that Won’t Die: Donald Trump as Russia's Puppet


Russophobes seem to believe that if they repeat an absurdity often enough, it somehow becomes true. The myth that Trump has been Putin’s puppet falls into that category. Trump did commit the apparently unpardonable sin during the 2016 campaign of advocating better relations with Moscow, and he was guilty of using effusive diplomatic language at Helsinki. But if one examines his administration’s actual policies toward Russia, the notion that he is “doing Putin’s bidding” or even pursuing an appeasement policy evaporates.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/sk...s-puppet-48982

[Rockstar]

Just a guess, I bet if you investigated those politicians who were chirping on about Trump's ties too Russia. You would probably find those accusers probably have cozy ties to Ukraine they didn't want too see disrupted.

[Dowly]

Hold your champagne for after the report has been released (if it is released).

[Rockstar]

Personally I don't think the entire report will be released without redactions. I'm sure during this boondoggle Mueller discovered a great deal of information that would be wise to keep classified. Unfortunately that will play into the hands of our media and internet crusaders from all walks of ideology who keep chirpping on about what might have, coulda, woulda, shoulda been.

What I know so far is those things many were hoping for (collusion, obstruction, putin control of trump etc etc) you know all that bandwidth consumed here writing about woulda, coulda, shoulda here on this message board didn't pan out.

btw I dont drink alcholic beverages

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

What I know so far is those things many were hoping for (collusion, obstruction, putin control of trump etc etc) you know all that bandwidth consumed here writing about woulda, coulda, shoulda here on this message board didn't pan out.

You know exactly as much as anyone else who have not read the report; very little.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Hold your champagne for after the report has been released (if it is released).

I don't think it is going to matter. There are a lot of people who will not let this go. They can't. Every new bit of information or lack of information sets off new conspiracy theories. Mueller went from being a straight shooting boyscout to just another Conservative who is probably compromised. People will go to their graves believing what was pounded into their brains on a nightly basis for two years.

I like alcoholic beverages.

[Skybird]

The irony is that the issue is a non-issue, no matter whether there are issues or not.
The anti-Trumpians made one big mistake. They assumed that in their clean and tidy laboratory world there would be a smoking gun somehwere, if Trump asnwers favours to Putin. That it would be signed and sealed in a fashion that is formal and can be disclosed if you find the right causal evidence.


And that is ver yunlikely, and ws so from beginning on. There have been ties between Trump and person rnaking high in he Russian hierarchy. He most liely accepted compromising social situation, to out it this way, h maintained ties to dubious business names in Russia who were engaged in prostituion, fraud or were generally extrenely close to and protected by Putin.


We do not know ehether the Russians have somethin in their hands to blackmail him. And such a report like that of Mueller is extrenely unlikely to ever find that out if it were the truth. It is also extremely unreasonable to think the befor ementioned smoking gun would exist.


And still: Russian nfluence on Trumps thinking and decison making still could be real, and critical, formed by the mere social contexa nd the way the Russians handled it. Did they flatter his ego? Did they place kind mind-mines in his brain that later exploded? They certainly did not sit own and signed a contract, both sides, that the Kremlin and Trump from now on would collude. You can influence anothe rperson nevertheless, and in way more subtle fashion, non-.verbally, by suggestive langauge, non-verbial communication, imoressing or intimidating the other, flattering him, and so forth. In other words: you can send bullets without firing guns that thus do not smoke at all. A leader can indicate to his staff he wants somethign done that the law forbids him to to order. Likewise you can mnaipulate another person to correspond with your intentions, by cleverly manioulating his way of how he thinks about it.



The dems thought there would be a smoking gun to be found. And indeed there are string indicatons that not everything in trumps campaign went as morally and legally clean as one demands in an electona nd campaign. That Trump behaves like an uneducated bloke and has assembled a gang of marvelous mobesters around him, doe snit hel o cure the bad imoression he leaves, too.



Still, that a smoking gun would be found, I never believed. And now Mueller says that he did not find a smoking gun. But he also said that his fidning were not to be taken as an exoneration of Trump - something that Trump comfortably frgets to mention.


The Dems ut all their money on this report, andnthat was the big msitake they made. Now they stand there, breathless, low on ammo, and have nothing to hold in their hands and show to the camera. Once again it shows that Trump is not so much string by his own means, but is strong due to the headlessness and stupdity and weakness of his opponents. And so it looks as if he most likely will win the next presidential elections as well. There are two radicalizations taking place on both ends of the spectrum: the ever leftist Democrats turning even more penly left and socialist than they already were - and by that feeding the hardliners and rightwingers who turn more extreme in their positions in a reaction t the left - and by that the feed back on the moving of the Dems to even further to the left...


And this is playing right into the hands of Putin, like the Europeans being too busy with their own messy state at home as if they could ose a serious threat to Russia'S ambitions. Here is the motive of a Russian meddlig with internal Western policy-making and elections: to spread unrest and destabilising societies by polarising extremes even further. Standard tactic described already in KGB manuals from the cold war.



You think you can causally prove that, and that you can find a smoking gun? Better don't bet on it. But like in criminal investgations they sometimes say "Follow the money", it can also be said: "Who has a motive for what? Who benefits?"


The Mueller report is non surprise, and it gets overestmated anyway. That Barr however takes sides with Trump by the way he tries to hide cerain harsh wordings by Mueller and softens them up by replacing thme with his own and sometimes kind of wishy-washy-formulations, is to be noted. He would not have been the minister of justice who went against Nixon if today would be that time back then. Worrying.

[Dowly]

@u_crank: Of course it matters. Barr's summary leaves a lot to desire and only raises more questions.

The summary makes it very specific as to what Mueller's team found with regards to Trump/Russia. That is, whether Trump/Trump campaign colluded/coordinated directly with the Russian government to interfere with the elections by way of sowing discord on social media and/or hack emails and spread them. That leaves a lot of questions about the scope of Mueller's probe. The Trump Tower meeting for example was between Don Jr., Kushner, Manafort and Emin Agalarov (others were present as well). Agalarov is not part of the Russian government. Does that mean Mueller's scope prevented him from investigation it any further? Did he refer it to some other agency? The full report would clear that up.

On obstruction, Mueller left the decision to AG Barr. That raises the question as to how much evidence Mueller's team found showing obstruction? Had there not been any evidence, the summary would surely say so, don't you think?

[u crank]

We may yet see Mueller's report although there would likely be redacted sections. There would be two reasons for that. One is the old standby about national security and the identity of agents of the US and other governments. The other is that the report might (intentionally or unintentionally) contain the names of innocent people caught up in the probe. Publishing those names would probably be illegal and lead to lawsuits.

But almost for certain Mueller's report would not contain all the data used to make the report. We are never going to see that unless there is a wiki leaks type of exposer. And for good reason. There is no way that Mueller and his team of investigators could spend two years of looking into all the details of this probe without uncovering embarrassing info about the Obama administration. Some of that is already known but my guess is Mueller knows a lot more. And of all the questionable behavior of those people, one name would be prominent. Mueller's old buddy and understudy one James Comey.

[Dowly]

I'm not looking for a full report with methodologies etc. ofcourse that stuff would be redacted. What I'm interested to see is Mueller's reasoning and the scope he was allowed to go in his investigation.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Dowly

@u_crank: Of course it matters. Barr's summary leaves a lot to desire and only raises more questions.

I'm not disputing that at all. In fact I agree with that statement.

The point I was trying to make is that to the true believers (and there are true believers on both sides) it's not going to matter. There is now a significant part of the US population that that believes that Trump is a Russian agent and a traitor. How did they get to that point before Mueller's report was submitted?

MSNBC grew its advertising revenue from from January 2017 to February 2018 by a whopping 62 percent. That is not a coincidence. It is nothing short of mass brainwashing. And yes Fox does the same thing.

The true believers have already turned on Robert Mueller. But I doubt very much if they will ever turn on Rachel Maddow.

Originally Posted by Dowly

I'm not looking for a full report with methodologies etc. of course that stuff would be redacted. What I'm interested to see is Mueller's reasoning and the scope he was allowed to go in his investigation.

And that would be a good thing to see. But I am afraid you, me and everyone else is going to be disappointed. Mueller's reasoning and his methodology are likely not in the report. In other words he is not going to show his work. Just the conclusions. In short he is under no obligation to explain himself. But that may change if he gets hauled up in front of a Congressional hearing.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Dowly

I'm not looking for a full report with methodologies etc. ofcourse that stuff would be redacted. What I'm interested to see is Mueller's reasoning and the scope he was allowed to go in his investigation.

The scope and I think reasoning for doing what he did is already known i.e. how far Mueller is allowed too go. That was revealed at the beginning of this boondoggle almost two years ago.

By Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein appointing Mueller states:

(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James B. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
(c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters. . . . .

What we will most likely never know is everything Mueller discovered in course of this investigation. I think much of what was discovered should remain classified for reasons u-crank has already pointed out. Which unfortunately is just going lead to more political hacks and shills to take advantage of that vying for attention and ratings spewing more woulda coulda shoulda on late night TV. Apparently this what people want.

[u crank]

Well I had to read this part of this article more than once. This is in regards to the obstruction of justice charge in Mueller's report which Mueller declined to make a decision on. Emphasis is mine.

If the Justice Department, in Mueller’s judgment, was perfectly well-suited to make the call, how could there possibly have been a conflict so profound that it was necessary to bring in a special counsel in the first place? A special counsel, mind you, who recruited his staff from the Justice Department, transferred the cases he brought to Justice Department components, and, now, has ultimately delegated his decision-making responsibility to the Justice Department.

As usual Mr. McCarthy makes some pretty good points.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...ler-abdicates/

On obstruction, however, Mueller declined to apply the law to the facts. That was the only job he was hired to do. Whether he thinks the Justice Department’s decision not to charge the president is an exoneration or something less is no more relevant than what you or I think about it.