Good news for Eurofighter

[Takeda Shingen]

Peace is an unatainable ideal, as 3000 years of recorded history can attest. To believe that converting all of the world's weapon production facilities into Volvo factories and Airbus plants will rid the world of war and violence is a fallacy. Man's inherent nature drives him towards the accumulation of wealth as a means of siezing power, which provides him security. Thus, conflict will continue, be it with tanks, bombs, swords, spears, sticks, or stones.

Economically, few things are as lucrative as military contract. Aside from providing jobs, it ensures military superiority for the country that I live in and its' allies, thus preventing enemies from having me needlessly drawn and quartered, and having my house bulldozed.

[Marhkimov]

Takeda Shingen,

You of all people, I would have believed that you would be for a non-militaristic approach... If there's anything we need in this world, it's less guns and more understanding of others.

Peace will never be possible -- I agree to that. History has proven war through the past 3000 years, but does that mean you want to continue with the tradition?

[Takeda Shingen]

You misunderstand me. We agree that man will continue to slaughter his fellow man. With that as foundation, does it truly matter as to vehicle of demise. Is the instant vaporization of 30,000 truly more horrific than 30,000 killed by spear, sword, pillage and rape? Is the opposite true? Certainly no, to both. Dead is dead. Destroyed lives are destroyed lives. This is true with one bomb. It is true with 1,000 as well. A militaristic approach? No, that is not my stand.



Voltaire puts forth that Candide, at the end of his adventures, settles with his companions in Turkey. Martin and Pangloss continue their argument on the nature of man and the world. Candide simply states that we "must tend our garden", as it alone leads to survival in a brutal world.

Wagner summarizes that only Parsifal, by turning his back on the ways of the worldly, achieves any peace of self and of community. Not the group belonging of Guremanz, not the good works of Kundry can achieve that.

That is my stand.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Marhkimov

Moving on, how about this?

Japan doesn't have a super-bully-military (ala the United States), and they are doing just fine. They have enough of a home defense military, and that's all they need... They're smart enough not to mess around in Iraq, and in turn Iraq doesn't mess around with them.

Japan resolves their differences by superior diplomatic techniques, to the point that no one hates them... And if Japan is hated by anyone, then it is only because they are so damn successful. That's as good a reason as any to be hated... All they do is mass produce cars, factories, various other commodities and goods.

Excuse me? Japan in terms of destroyers and frigates rank in the top four for numbers of hulls and the JMSDF operate over 20 attack submarines! They also send support forces (numbering a 1000 troops) to Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. They also have forces in East Timor and Israel/Syria Its ok for them to be prepared for a possable fight with North Korea, Russia or the PRC but not us?

BTW Did you know that North Korea has kidnapped Japanese citizens for their intelligence operations because they could be used to teach their agents to infiltrate western nations? If I was the Japanese I would have done a hell of a lot more than complain to Korean diplomats like they did! I would have gotten my people back!

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Excuse me? Japan in terms of destroyers and frigates rank in the top four for numbers of hulls and the JMSDF operate over 20 attack submarines! They also send support forces (numbering a 1000 troops) to Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. They also have forces in East Timor and Israel/Syria Its ok for them to be prepared for a possable fight with North Korea, Russia or the PRC but not us?

BTW Did you know that North Korea has kidnapped Japanese citizens for their intelligence operations because they could be used to teach their agents to infiltrate western nations? If I was the Japanese I would have done a hell of a lot more than complain to Korean diplomats like they did! I would have gotten my people back!

Yep. Also, such diplomatic channels would have been strained at the beginning, since Japan does not have particularly chummy relations with any of its' Asian neighbors. There's some sort of long history of expansionism and imperialism in Japan's past that isn't easily put aside (kind of sounds like the USA). Japan's importance as a trade partner to the west allows them to sweep their differences under the rug. Superior diplomacy has nothing to do with it.

Example: Japan's illegal whaling industry, which they do not seem to be in such a hurry to put an end to. No big fuss about it either. So, they have problems too. It is just that, living in America, we hear about America's more often.

[XabbaRus]

Well the ideals are fine but don't fit with the practicalities.

The defence industry is one of the biggest social programmes in I think most western economies.

Sure I think everyone would love peace but like communism it is an ideal that is unattainable due to human nature.

[Pigfish]

Maybe not so good? :hmm: An update on the Saudi Eurofighter purchase:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publ...cle_004575.php

[Takeda Shingen]

The Saudis are wise to act now, but it is likely that they may not have the revenue needed to fund the purchase and training come the end of that 20-year purchase period.

[Marhkimov]

I guess you guys are all in favor of the Eurofighter project...

And all in favor of expanding nuclear programs...

And all in favor of more bombs and improved weaponry... More for the US, more for Saudi Arabia, more for Iraq, more for Russia, more for China, more for Korea...

More for everyone, it seems.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Marhkimov

I guess you guys are all in favor of the Eurofighter project...

And all in favor of expanding nuclear programs...

And all in favor of more bombs and improved weaponry... More for the US, more for Saudi Arabia, more for Iraq, more for Russia, more for China, more for Korea...

More for everyone...

Asked and answered. Repeatedly.

[Marhkimov]

Well, then we are having an impossible discussion.

Especially when no one is listening to me...


And I find it peculiar that no one else (other than me) believes in holding the military lower on our list of priorities.

[Pigfish]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

The Saudis are wise to act now, but it is likely that they may not have the revenue needed to fund the purchase and training come the end of that 20-year purchase period.

Seems the Saudis are distancing themselves from the Americans in a lot of ways. A crazy world.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Pigfish

Seems the Saudis are distancing themselves from the Americans in a lot of ways. A crazy world.

I think this is smart on the part of the House of Saud. With Great Britian currently the hotbed of Islamic activity outside of the Middle East, they want to warm up to the Brits by giving them a big chunck of business. Defense contracts are currently a buyer's market, and the Saudis are loaded with cash.

Of course, distancing themselves from the US makes them more popular with their neighbors as well. Win-win here.

[TLAM Strike]

Could backfire on the Saudis too. If there is another terrorist attack in the UK the Brits can start to demand the Saudis start another crackdown on radicals and dangle the continuation of the EF service contract over their heads. Imagine if the Saudis all of a sudden have a few squadrons of EF and their manufacture threatens to cut of the supply of spare parts and upgrades…

@Marhkimov: Sorry, I understand where you are coming from but so many of my friends are in the military and I want them to have the best equipment possible so they come home alive. One of my long time family friends just came back from Iraq and is in Buffalo for his post deployment "cool down", he is career air national guard (with a wife and three kids) and just not fighting isn’t an option he would consider I think. I'm just glad he is a support guy and not a riflemen.

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

One of my long time family friends just came back from Iraq and is in Buffalo for his post deployment "cool down", he is career air national guard (with a wife and three kids) and just not fighting isn’t an option he would consider I think. I'm just glad he is a support guy and not a riflemen.

If the United States government didn't order your friend to go and fight, then he wouldn't have to risk his life over in Iraq.

And switching to another question: whatever happened to isolationism? Iraq has it's own problems, and we have ours. Why not fix ours, before we go and fix theirs?

I have a feeling that if we leave them alone, then they won't friggin' hate us... And even if they hate us anyway, they have a RIGHT to hate us -- that is their opinion... Not to mention our boys would stop dying overseas!