For those of you who think the XXI Sucks..... - Page 4

Jungman · 07-17-05, 10:53 PM

Setting it to 12m just makes the sub go to 12m deep instead of say 10 meters deep. The Radar needs to be set to detect minimum height from 0 to say 2 meters....I think...

CCIP · 07-17-05, 10:56 PM

That can be done pretty easily too you know, although it might spoof the radar's detection ability a bit.
But probably workable, if you can experiment with it :hmm:

That said, real centimetric radar COULD detect a snorkel head in late war....

Jungman · 07-17-05, 11:22 PM

Yes, late war, here is data from the Sunderland SNS

[Sensor 5]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=ASVMarkI
StartDate=19410101
EndDate=19430601

[Sensor 6]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=ASVMarkIII
StartDate=19430601
EndDate=19440601

[Sensor 7]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=ASVMarkVII
StartDate=19440601
EndDate=19451231

ASVMarkI Range 8 km MinSurface 1.5m
ASVMarkII Range 10 km MinSurface 1.5m
ASVMarkIII Range 12 km MinSurface 1.5m
ASVMarkVI Range 14 km MinSurface 0.3m
ASVMarkVII Range 16 km MinSurface 0.03m

As you can see, the last years war radar is 0.3m and .03m. That last year war radar would be impossible to hide a snorkel from, and the radar in the Sim.cfg does not have a range penalilty applied to it. Even 0.3 m is pretty darn good to detect you. And that is in June 1943.

Many people have lamented about the snorkel being detected by radar so easy.

All radar is at leat 1.5 meters, then goes to 0.3 meters, then the impossible 0.03m (3 cm radar).

That is why snorkel above less than 1.5 barely about waves will work and not get detected.

I believe this should be modded up to higher values.

First guess is from 1.5m, 0.3m , 0.03m;
to 2.5m, 1.5m, 0.3m.

These will let you snorkel fine until June 1943, then you must dive lower in water to avoid the better radars at 1.5 meters, then after June 1944 the radar is 0.3m almost impossible to not get detected unless in very smooth water to let snorkel work (water waves higher than 0.3m will shut it off).

Destroyers have thier own radar types too.

Jungman · 07-18-05, 05:08 AM

Fixed snorkel/radar bug; crude but works (want to clean it up a bit). Found out your crew sensors data is in the Sensors.dat file itself. Alot of stuff can be tweaked.

Seen a posible fix for the 180 degree radar reading. The MaxBearing is at 360 while the MaxElevation is at only 180. Thus 180 is 'cut off' like a reflection.

Check it out. I am setting Visual to 20 km for the fun of it, you can edit alot more stuff (prob_detect, sweep arc, sweep rate, precision Range, max range, Surface Area, etc).

think I will start a new thread soon just for this stuff, Snorkel_Radar bug fix. Radar_Reverse fix, and a better Visual 20/20 model beyond 8 km (which helps to spot airplanes and ship smoke over the horizon even though you cannot see it rendered). You can set the detection rate at long distance, and fog plus night time will decrease it dramatically.

Type XX1 radar 391 on the snorkel has an odd co-ordinates. It is not connected on top of the snorkel! Floating like a ghost off to the side?? No wonder it says radar destroyed...did not try fix that yet, just noticed it from this post and looking at the raw data....

Duncan Idaho · 07-18-05, 06:05 AM

Hey, that's some good work you're doing here. I had thought the snorkel radar might not be mounted right, but had no idea where to look.

I think a lot of folks will be interested in anything you do to increase visibility, as that's one of the more common complaints among the realism crowd, (and I don't blame them, 7k visibility is pretty low compared to what you'd really see).

I think a lot of the stuff in this thread should maybe be added to the faq or something, as there seem now to be fixes for a lot of the IX series and the XXI subs. (And if you can fix that snorkel radar, the XXI sub would be totally fixed now).

Oh, I should mention that that snorkel radar is purchasable for the VIIC/42, wonder if it's the same problem for that ship?

Anyway, pretty sweet! Nicely done!

tycho102 · 07-18-05, 07:23 AM

This is an outstanding thread, and I feel many of the tweaks discussed in here worthwhile. I've not gotten past 1940 just yet (the game hasn't been agreeing with my system), but I'm currently working on it. I think the game's balance needs to be adjusted on several levels.

With the radar, it's important to keep in mind that ~2.4ghz is absorbed by water, very efficiently. When the radar climbed on up toward 10ghz, it was still attenuated by the water, but the metal snorkel was like a mirror. Similar to when you're shining a hand-held laser pointer onto a stop sign or license plate, it gives a really bright return in comparision to the surroundings. This is exactly what operaters were trained to look for, that enormous return in between waves.

So the 10ghz radar really could pickup a snorkel on the surface, in theory (radar sets work different in the field

). And because the planes have that enormous height difference, they could definately spot it out of the background reflection. But ships were another matter entirely, and it took a "veteran" crew to be alert enough to spot that millisecond blip on the antenna rotation.

With 5ghz radar on a ship, the only time they would get a strong return is in calm waters. Planes could pickup a snorkel in wave-action, but it would take an alert operator, and he would have to verify it (<-- extra time) amongst all the other false returns.

Syxx_Killer · 07-18-05, 08:19 AM

Quote:

There is a work around for this bug. It works with the other boats. Do not use it at snorkel depth. The game engine thinks you are on the surface of the ocean and thier radar picks you up.

The thing is, I do use it at periscope depth. I don't use snorkel depth. I know radar could pick the snorkel up, but I think maybe it does it too easily.

Your findings, Jungman, are very promising! I do look forward to the thread if you post it. Btw, if you still need someone to test it, I will be glad too.

Faamecanic · 07-18-05, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungman

Fixed snorkel/radar bug; crude but works (want to clean it up a bit). Found out your crew sensors data is in the Sensors.dat file itself. Alot of stuff can be tweaked.

Seen a posible fix for the 180 degree radar reading. The MaxBearing is at 360 while the MaxElevation is at only 180. Thus 180 is 'cut off' like a reflection.

Check it out. I am setting Visual to 20 km for the fun of it, you can edit alot more stuff (prob_detect, sweep arc, sweep rate, precision Range, max range, Surface Area, etc).

think I will start a new thread soon just for this stuff, Snorkel_Radar bug fix. Radar_Reverse fix, and a better Visual 20/20 model beyond 8 km (which helps to spot airplanes and ship smoke over the horizon even though you cannot see it rendered). You can set the detection rate at long distance, and fog plus night time will decrease it dramatically.

Type XX1 radar 391 on the snorkel has an odd co-ordinates. It is not connected on top of the snorkel! Floating like a ghost off to the side?? No wonder it says radar destroyed...did not try fix that yet, just noticed it from this post and looking at the raw data....

Great JOB JUNGMAN!! Cant wait to see some of these fixes in action.... sadly my career is almost over (Feb 1945). If this fixes most of the issues...I may have to go back to when I first bought the XXI in April 44.

User 1834 · 07-18-05, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Idaho

...(And if you can fix that snorkel radar, the XXI sub would be totally fixed now)....

No, the battery system is still broken. Cdr Gibs"fix" allows the sub to move at flank speed indefinitely on batteries which is, as I am sure you already know, not realistic at all. We need to find some way of making the recharge time shorter and, if possible, making the battery recharge to 100%. Still, excellent job on the Snorkel radar fix.

Duncan Idaho · 07-18-05, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by User 1834

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Idaho

...(And if you can fix that snorkel radar, the XXI sub would be totally fixed now)....

No, the battery system is still broken. Cdr Gibs"fix" allows the sub to move at flank speed indefinitely on batteries which is, as I am sure you already know, not realistic at all. We need to find some way of making the recharge time shorter and, if possible, making the battery recharge to 100%. Still, excellent job on the Snorkel radar fix.

Yeah, forgot about that one

, but with the fix, I'm not bothered. I'm not so hung up on 'realism' that I can't work around the limited battery flaw. I know I can go at flank for days underwater, but I don't.

Hmm, which makes me wonder now what the actual problem is with the batteries? Or is it a problem with the diesels? Where to begin?

Faamecanic · 07-18-05, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Idaho

Quote:

Originally Posted by User 1834

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Idaho

...(And if you can fix that snorkel radar, the XXI sub would be totally fixed now)....

No, the battery system is still broken. Cdr Gibs"fix" allows the sub to move at flank speed indefinitely on batteries which is, as I am sure you already know, not realistic at all. We need to find some way of making the recharge time shorter and, if possible, making the battery recharge to 100%. Still, excellent job on the Snorkel radar fix.

Yeah, forgot about that one

, but with the fix, I'm not bothered. I'm not so hung up on 'realism' that I can't work around the limited battery flaw. I know I can go at flank for days underwater, but I don't.

Hmm, which makes me wonder now what the actual problem is with the batteries? Or is it a problem with the diesels? Where to begin?

Im not totally hung up on realism.... but the batt Infinate charge is a bit too much for me... sigh.... But still a GREAT job on investigating. If the Schnorkel radar works...then I can live with the batts being bugged.

Jungman · 07-20-05, 05:40 AM

I need a beta tester to try this snorkel radar fix. The three basic radar sensitivity is 0.03m, 0.3m, and 1.5m.

I changed them to 0.3m, 1.5m, 2.5m respectively.

Just I guess. It is the radar MinSurface values for the 18 radar types used by the enemy ships and airplanes. I modified my AI_Sensors.dat file, which is used by my new SonarDC_20 Mod.

The only affect is the DD are not as Super Lock On in the game for SonarDC_20 Mod.

Knowing that, and if this works decent (or need to change some values) I will make another version for use with the stock game file.

Give it a try...I do not have time to test it yet....Snorkel Mod

http://rapidshare.de/files/3202118/AI_Sensors.dat.html

Just place it in you DATA/Library folder. Backup original.

Your Schnorkel will have a better chance not to be detected by airplanes so easily via the later year radars. You do not need to restart a patrol or carreer -should be immediate from an ingame save....even you periscope...and go slow not to set off visual detection.

Syxx_Killer · 07-20-05, 09:05 AM

Thanks for the work, Jungman! I look forward to trying it out later.

tycho102 · 07-20-05, 10:49 AM

Man, you all. I think the only thing that could stand to be tweaked with the airplanes is the range. The range at which they can spot you. I don't have any idea, but based on vacuum tubes, air-cooled magnetrons and primitive receiver technology, I'm going to guess 12 miles. A 12 mile radius with the 5ghz sets, at 2000 meters altitude. Probably pretty close to 20 miles with the 10ghz sets.

If you want to argue about arc-resolution, I'm completely open to debate that issue. I have no doubt that a plane's arc-resolution sucked, compared to a ship's resolution. The ship has right next to no mass restrictions, so they could shove the heaviest thing on there that could be manufactured. But a plane is patrolling at ~160knots, compared to your 17 knots. It's like resolving a fixed-target. They could circle you at 8km, and nail down your position in early 1944 with the 5ghz radar.

A ship, on the other hand, is going to have a lot more water to pound through. I'd guess a third of whatever the plane's range was; possibly a fourth.

You're changing the minimum height, and you need to be able to change the sensitivity of each individual radar set. It's not the same thing as changing the minimum height, but I can certainly understand if it's the "best" that can be done with the game; a workaround, but certainly not a realistic fix of the simulation.

Syxx_Killer · 07-20-05, 11:18 AM

Well, I quickly did to tests of your file, Jungman. Sadly, I think they are still attracted to the snorkel like a dog to a bone. The first test was done with a wind speed of 8m/s, partial clouds, no precip, light fog. The second test was pretty much the same except for 13m/s winds. I can to periscope depth and not more than an hour later (game time) two Sunderlands showed up. In the second test it was a couple hours longer before they showed. Each time they caused heavy damage, with the second being a death blow.

07-17-05, 10:56 PM	#47
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	That can be done pretty easily too you know, although it might spoof the radar's detection ability a bit. But probably workable, if you can experiment with it :hmm: That said, real centimetric radar COULD detect a snorkel head in late war.... __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-18-05, 06:05 AM	#50
Duncan Idaho Marine Boy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In your baffles Posts: 201 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hey, that's some good work you're doing here. I had thought the snorkel radar might not be mounted right, but had no idea where to look. I think a lot of folks will be interested in anything you do to increase visibility, as that's one of the more common complaints among the realism crowd, (and I don't blame them, 7k visibility is pretty low compared to what you'd really see). I think a lot of the stuff in this thread should maybe be added to the faq or something, as there seem now to be fixes for a lot of the IX series and the XXI subs. (And if you can fix that snorkel radar, the XXI sub would be totally fixed now). Oh, I should mention that that snorkel radar is purchasable for the VIIC/42, wonder if it's the same problem for that ship? Anyway, pretty sweet! Nicely done! __________________ Idaho- -I like to play poker with Tarot cards. The other night I got a full house, and 4 people died.

07-17-05, 10:53 PM	#46
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Setting it to 12m just makes the sub go to 12m deep instead of say 10 meters deep. The Radar needs to be set to detect minimum height from 0 to say 2 meters....I think...

07-17-05, 11:22 PM	#48
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes, late war, here is data from the Sunderland SNS [Sensor 5] NodeName=R01 LinkName=ASVMarkI StartDate=19410101 EndDate=19430601 [Sensor 6] NodeName=R01 LinkName=ASVMarkIII StartDate=19430601 EndDate=19440601 [Sensor 7] NodeName=R01 LinkName=ASVMarkVII StartDate=19440601 EndDate=19451231 ASVMarkI Range 8 km MinSurface 1.5m ASVMarkII Range 10 km MinSurface 1.5m ASVMarkIII Range 12 km MinSurface 1.5m ASVMarkVI Range 14 km MinSurface 0.3m ASVMarkVII Range 16 km MinSurface 0.03m As you can see, the last years war radar is 0.3m and .03m. That last year war radar would be impossible to hide a snorkel from, and the radar in the Sim.cfg does not have a range penalilty applied to it. Even 0.3 m is pretty darn good to detect you. And that is in June 1943. Many people have lamented about the snorkel being detected by radar so easy. All radar is at leat 1.5 meters, then goes to 0.3 meters, then the impossible 0.03m (3 cm radar). That is why snorkel above less than 1.5 barely about waves will work and not get detected. I believe this should be modded up to higher values. First guess is from 1.5m, 0.3m , 0.03m; to 2.5m, 1.5m, 0.3m. These will let you snorkel fine until June 1943, then you must dive lower in water to avoid the better radars at 1.5 meters, then after June 1944 the radar is 0.3m almost impossible to not get detected unless in very smooth water to let snorkel work (water waves higher than 0.3m will shut it off). Destroyers have thier own radar types too.

07-18-05, 05:08 AM	#49
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Fixed snorkel/radar bug; crude but works (want to clean it up a bit). Found out your crew sensors data is in the Sensors.dat* file itself. Alot of stuff can be tweaked. Seen a posible fix for the 180 degree radar reading. The MaxBearing is at 360 while the MaxElevation is at only 180. Thus 180 is 'cut off' like a reflection. Check it out. I am setting Visual to 20 km for the fun of it, you can edit alot more stuff (prob_detect, sweep arc, sweep rate, precision Range, max range, Surface Area, etc). think I will start a new thread soon just for this stuff, Snorkel_Radar* bug fix. Radar_Reverse fix, and a better Visual 20/20 model beyond 8 km (which helps to spot airplanes and ship smoke over the horizon even though you cannot see it rendered). You can set the detection rate at long distance, and fog plus night time will decrease it dramatically. Type XX1 radar 391 on the snorkel has an odd co-ordinates. It is not connected on top of the snorkel! Floating like a ghost off to the side?? No wonder it says radar destroyed...did not try fix that yet, just noticed it from this post and looking at the raw data....

07-18-05, 07:23 AM	#51
tycho102 Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,100 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This is an outstanding thread, and I feel many of the tweaks discussed in here worthwhile. I've not gotten past 1940 just yet (the game hasn't been agreeing with my system), but I'm currently working on it. I think the game's balance needs to be adjusted on several levels. With the radar, it's important to keep in mind that ~2.4ghz is absorbed by water, very efficiently. When the radar climbed on up toward 10ghz, it was still attenuated by the water, but the metal snorkel was like a mirror. Similar to when you're shining a hand-held laser pointer onto a stop sign or license plate, it gives a really bright return in comparision to the surroundings. This is exactly what operaters were trained to look for, that enormous return in between waves. So the 10ghz radar really could pickup a snorkel on the surface, in theory (radar sets work different in the field ). And because the planes have that enormous height difference, they could definately spot it out of the background reflection. But ships were another matter entirely, and it took a "veteran" crew to be alert enough to spot that millisecond blip on the antenna rotation. With 5ghz radar on a ship, the only time they would get a strong return is in calm waters. Planes could pickup a snorkel in wave-action, but it would take an alert operator, and he would have to verify it (<-- extra time) amongst all the other false returns.

07-20-05, 05:40 AM	#57
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I need a beta tester to try this snorkel radar fix. The three basic radar sensitivity is 0.03m, 0.3m, and 1.5m. I changed them to 0.3m, 1.5m, 2.5m respectively. Just I guess. It is the radar MinSurface values for the 18 radar types used by the enemy ships and airplanes. I modified my AI_Sensors.dat file, which is used by my new SonarDC_20 Mod. The only affect is the DD are not as Super Lock On in the game for SonarDC_20 Mod. Knowing that, and if this works decent (or need to change some values) I will make another version for use with the stock game file. Give it a try...I do not have time to test it yet....Snorkel Mod http://rapidshare.de/files/3202118/AI_Sensors.dat.html Just place it in you DATA/Library folder. Backup original. Your Schnorkel will have a better chance not to be detected by airplanes so easily via the later year radars. You do not need to restart a patrol or carreer -should be immediate from an ingame save....even you periscope...and go slow not to set off visual detection.

07-20-05, 09:05 AM	#58
Syxx_Killer Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 2,387 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the work, Jungman! I look forward to trying it out later.

07-20-05, 10:49 AM	#59
tycho102 Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,100 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Man, you all. I think the only thing that could stand to be tweaked with the airplanes is the range. The range at which they can spot you. I don't have any idea, but based on vacuum tubes, air-cooled magnetrons and primitive receiver technology, I'm going to guess 12 miles. A 12 mile radius with the 5ghz sets, at 2000 meters altitude. Probably pretty close to 20 miles with the 10ghz sets. If you want to argue about arc-resolution, I'm completely open to debate that issue. I have no doubt that a plane's arc-resolution sucked, compared to a ship's resolution. The ship has right next to no mass restrictions, so they could shove the heaviest thing on there that could be manufactured. But a plane is patrolling at ~160knots, compared to your 17 knots. It's like resolving a fixed-target. They could circle you at 8km, and nail down your position in early 1944 with the 5ghz radar. A ship, on the other hand, is going to have a lot more water to pound through. I'd guess a third of whatever the plane's range was; possibly a fourth. You're changing the minimum height, and you need to be able to change the sensitivity of each individual radar set. It's not the same thing as changing the minimum height, but I can certainly understand if it's the "best" that can be done with the game; a workaround, but certainly not a realistic fix of the simulation.

07-20-05, 11:18 AM	#60
Syxx_Killer Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 2,387 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Well, I quickly did to tests of your file, Jungman. Sadly, I think they are still attracted to the snorkel like a dog to a bone. The first test was done with a wind speed of 8m/s, partial clouds, no precip, light fog. The second test was pretty much the same except for 13m/s winds. I can to periscope depth and not more than an hour later (game time) two Sunderlands showed up. In the second test it was a couple hours longer before they showed. Each time they caused heavy damage, with the second being a death blow.