Isn't the TMA a little too perfect?

[Shadriss]

Originally Posted by banryu79

[I think that if you are looking for the kind of feedback on sensor data that you describe in your post then Dangerous Waters comes to mind!]

DW isn't bad at all, actually. I was hoping that CW would be able to step into it's place, but it is obvious it was developed more as an 'arcadey' kind of game than a simulator. Not banging on it for that, please don't get me wrong. It's still fun, I just run into frustrations because I know what I should be seeing or getting from my 'operators' in the game, and they aren't there.

Chalk it up to actual knowledge getting in the way of simplified expression, if you will.

[Julhelm]

We definitely developed it as a throwback to the old-school style of sim we loved in the 80's and 90's.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Shadriss

DW isn't bad at all, actually. I was hoping that CW would be able to step into it's place, but it is obvious it was developed more as an 'arcadey' kind of game than a simulator. Not banging on it for that, please don't get me wrong. It's still fun, I just run into frustrations because I know what I should be seeing or getting from my 'operators' in the game, and they aren't there.

Chalk it up to actual knowledge getting in the way of simplified expression, if you will.

Well, it always depends on the design of the game and in what it try to capture (what kind of gameplay it aims to deliver).
In this respect my opinion is that comparing DW with CW is like comparing apples with oranges because CW abstract/simplifies more from the "minutiae" of sensor data analysis and TMA procedures to deliver to the user a more "pre-digest tactical picture".

You still have to worry about ambient acustic conditions, enemy platform capabilities (with some nice values about your and their sensors capabilities somewhat updated to factor in the current realtimetactical situation), weapons capabilities and so on and so forth and condense everything to correctly perceive the risks, make informated guesses and finally take sound tactical decisions.

all of this without the difficult of multitasking of role you have in DW.
I bet the CW gameplay (I still haven't played it but I have both played RSR and DW) give you the feel of being the CO more than DW (where instead I sometimes have the feeling of being multiple peolpe or a single schizofrenic operator, lol).

Also, I think the user base for a game like CW is more ample than the one for DW.

They are two different games.

[Shadriss]

Originally Posted by banryu79

I bet the CW gameplay (I still haven't played it but I have both played RSR and DW) give you the feel of being the CO more than DW (where instead I sometimes have the feeling of being multiple peolpe or a single schizofrenic operator, lol).

I'm sure this is what they were shooting for, but I still think it could be done better, hence my statements. Everything I've talked about is available to the skipper - including a look at PBB, which CW doesn't provide, btw, and I haven't mentioned to this point because I understand those reasons far better than some of the others.

As the skipper, I should be able to look at the Plot, see what's around me, our best estimate of where they are going, how fast they are getting there, and how far from me they are... regardless of how 'good' we think the solution is. Solutions do not come in three-part packages - they are a whole. When I, as a RL Sonar Supervisor, pass out a solution to the Conn, I don't pass only Course and Speed if I don't have a feel for range. I pass my gut feel for a range based on a number of factors, and that's my solution.

In game terms, even if the solution percentage is crap, I should still be seeing my crew's best estimate for a contact's complete solution, not the piecemeal version we're getting in the current system. This would, additionally, address some of the 'too-perfect' feeling that currently exists. If you aren't sure that the solution as it's currently being plotted will not be jumping around as it's being worked on by the operators, you may be more reluctant to engage so soon, as an example. As it stands, if that contact is dropping dots on the plot, you know for certain-sure that's the truth, and can essentially fire at will.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Shadriss

As the skipper, I should be able to look at the Plot, see what's around me, our best estimate of where they are going, how fast they are getting there, and how far from me they are... regardless of how 'good' we think the solution is. Solutions do not come in three-part packages - they are a whole. When I, as a RL Sonar Supervisor, pass out a solution to the Conn, I don't pass only Course and Speed if I don't have a feel for range. I pass my gut feel for a range based on a number of factors, and that's my solution.

Originally Posted by Shadriss

As it stands, if that contact is dropping dots on the plot, you know for certain-sure that's the truth, and can essentially fire at will.

Ok, I think I now understand better your points.
I think I would like this type of gameplay as well!

But I'm curious, when you say this:

As the skipper, I should be able to look at the Plot, see what's around me, our best estimate of where they are going, how fast they are getting there, and how far from me they are... regardless of how 'good' we think the solution is. Solutions do not come in three-part packages - they are a whole

how would you rapresents, in the game, such concept of 'estimate' distinguished from the concept of the current 'solution'?
I was just wondering about how to design/implement such a thing in the game without substantially change the gameplay till the point you are making a "different" game (something like an ibrid of RSR/CW bent towards DW but with a twist... )

[stormrider_sp]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

We definitely developed it as a throwback to the old-school style of sim we loved in the 80's and 90's.

Oh yes! We can clearly see it by the CPU usage.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

Oh yes! We can clearly see it by the CPU usage.

Because the ocean runs on the CPU so we can query it for the wave heights. This would be much slower if it ran on the GPU.

[Destex]

This is my current wish list for CW TMA and plot:

1. TMA on Active Sonar intercept contacts.
2. Immediate classification for ESM and Active Intercept contacts for military targets.
3. No TMA for ESM only contacts.
4. Much slower decay for TMA contacts that have lost contact, let them keep the last solution when contact had been lost.
5. Have TMA much more responsive to own-ship maneuvering. Currently, there's not enough own ship contribution of own-ship maneuvering for solution build-up.

There are more that come to mind, but these are the items that feel to me feasible, and such that will dramatically make the game more realistic and more fun in relative small effort.

Originally Posted by Shadriss

In game terms, even if the solution percentage is crap, I should still be seeing my crew's best estimate for a contact's complete solution, not the piecemeal version we're getting in the current system.

I completely agree, however, I'm afraid that this is so overreaching given the current capabilities of the game that I don't dare wish for it... I hope I'm wrong

[Wiz33]

I posted this on the steam forum awhile back but before anyone ask for more realism (unless it's optional). read this thread:

It's hardcore players why this genre is dead

http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210...0934291143643/

[Destex]

Originally Posted by Wiz33

It's hardcore players why this genre is dead

Is that in response to what? The post above? The OP? What's the context?

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Destex

Is that in response to what? The post above? The OP? What's the context?

In general on anyone saying things are too simplified and needs to be more detailed. Too much realism unless optional makes games too complicated for casual gamer, which is needed to add new blood to the genre.

[difool2]

Those two goals are not necessarily mutually exclusive. At all.

[The Bandit]

Dunno, if done wrong this could put the devs down a dangerous road of "feature creep" and reinventing the wheel.

That's partially why I'm sort of against automated navigation. Other games (primarily DW/SC and Silent Hunter) you had all sorts of screens and stations to go through if / when you let the AI "fly" the ship for you. CW obviously doesn't have that, and if anything, auto navigation is going to bring that up more and more (and leave people with less to do).

"I wish the TMA was better.." "I wish that I had broadband/narrowband simulation and a sonar station like DW." "I wish that the weapons had programmable waypoints..."

If the Devs start doing this, and replacing features/systems that are already in the game with better and "more sim-like" ones, its not going to make things like a Soviet campaign come out any faster. This is especially true if they try to maintain an "easy mode" alongside advanced sonar and TMA.

They have done a great job making this game, so far a great job supporting it too. I hope they continue to deal with identified issues (AI, a few of the bugs here and there) and hopefully press on towards wherever they want to take this game in the future.

What I do find most encouraging though is that in almost all instances, these desired improvements are just thoughts out loud on the part of users who are still probably going to play and enjoy the game regardless. "I really wish it had this feature." instead of "This game sucks and I'll never buy it because its ARCADE!!!!"

[Destex]

Originally Posted by Wiz33

In general on anyone saying things are too simplified and needs to be more detailed. Too much realism unless optional makes games too complicated for casual gamer, which is needed to add new blood to the genre.

Actually, all of my suggestions would make the gameplay more friendly, easier AND more realistic at the same time, so your argument is wrong in the context it was given.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Destex

Actually, all of my suggestions would make the gameplay more friendly, easier AND more realistic at the same time, so your argument is wrong in the context it was given.

Yes and no, To someone who is familiar with modern military sims. It's pretty obvious that I should be able to get/narrow down the classification from ESM or Active sonar. But a casual player would wonder how one sec he have a low percentage contact and suddenly it jumped to being classified. To make them understand, the in game unit reference guide need to be updated with accurate sensor info (now pretty much all surface warship is listed with Don Kay radar) message log will also need to be modified to show that ESM have picked up a Don Kay radar bearing xxx classification possibility the following classes.......... (as some sensor are used in more than 1 platform).