Wikileaks' Julian Assange seeks Supreme Court hearing

[joea]

Assange might be, probably is a a** personally, surprised many feminist friends and colleagues have turned against him as he seems to be a bit of a jerk with women.

However, why are so many eager to defend governments and big corporations here? Why should they not also be held accountable for their actions and have some transparency forced on them?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello Jim,

Well, thanks you for your calm answer, i could almost read the *sigh* after it . I guess i went over the top with my post, however .. if a nation or its government conducts a crime, in the best intention or not (ahem), do you think it should rather cover that up than say sorry ?

"A democracy has to defend itself", but if it gets again its own and international law ?
"Right or wrong my country" is also an often-heard proverb, but ...

The Pentagon Papers: "When The New York Times began publishing its series, President Richard Nixon became incensed. His words to National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger included "People have gotta be put to the torch for this sort of thing..." and "Let's get the son-of-a-bitch in jail.""

So you think this would be the right thing to do ? The New York times was too big it seems, but maybe Assange with his now worldwide support is not.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

Hi Catfish

No problem mate, as I said earlier, we're all entitled to an opinion and a viewpoint

TBH we could debate the wrights and wrongs of many an individual and or country from past events till the cows come home....I'd rather stay on the thread topic in this case but readilly admit two or more wrongs don't make a right.

IMHO Assange (from #12)

Agreed....if charges have been brought and extradition requested he must go back to where the alleged crime or crimes took place to be tried by said countries judicial system.

I'm in no way making a judgement on his guilt or otherwise.

Also (#43)

Assange has voluntarily reduced his freedom to act by jumping bail and seeking refuge in a political mess that ensures he cannot leave a single building. This is of his own making.

I honestly don't see what defence he has after the way he has acted and I've yet to see any statement from the UK or Swedish government stating he will be extradited to the US.

What he is currently hiding from in the UK are sexual related allegations but he is happy to widen the scope to include all and sundry in an attempt to protect himself from what may well be far more serious charges in the future.

One step at a time, if it turns out he is a sex offender then he should face the consequences like any other person would.

His options are fast running out and his actions IMHO are doing nothing more than stacking the odds against himself.

Regards
jimbuna

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

One step at a time, if it turns out he is a sex offender then he should face the consequences like any other person would.

Indeed. But the question is whether this would be a fair trial that indeed focusses on just accusations that have been forwarded in an honest intention of self-defense by the victim. And this is what has to be doubted, and very much so. I say it is accusations constructed to bring him behind bars due to Wikileaks. And this easily could mean as well that all "evidence" and "witnesses reports" presented at court, are forged as well. Governments do such things.

If this were true, than this means that there is no fairness in any court procedure at all, and that Assange form all beginning on would not have the slightest chance to prove his innocence at court - the sentences is already decided while we sit here and discucss.

Western countries are no holy saints. They act with betrayal and bribery, pressure and lobbying in Third World countries all day in day out if it helps to make local decision.makers agree to their economical interests for resource exploitation contracts and getting rid of a local tribe of Indians for that first. And of course laws and treaties get formulated to let all this appear legal, and legal it is by the paper stuff indeed. Still it is a cheating plot, and is morally wrong, and betrayal.

Assange is an enemy of the state and persona non grata for several powerful players out there who simply seek revenge for what he did, and who want to crush him and see him behind bars forever to prevent him to ever head something like Wikileaks again. And to acchieve that, any plot, and lie, and secret service operation and any forged criminal accusations are acceptable to that. It is daily bread and butter for according government agencies to run operations like this. And this has to be taken into account. If he indeed committed rape in the meaning of the term, and it is guaranteed that any criminal persecution is focussed on that and is unaffected and sovereign from any attempt to manipulate it for political opportunistic intentions, then he should be bropught to court and get his sentence fpor thta rape indeed.

But we cannot be sure it is like this. We have reasons to believe that this is a plot to catch him, and holding him on the defense. We know the questionable nature of the charges, and the doubts about the claims of the socalled victim about their relation and her own relation to assange. There were many htings reported that did not fit together - and the noise of recent months successfully helped in letting these drift into the realms of a forgotten past.

Whether one wants it or not, politics play a role in all this. And thus the apparently obvious semblance should not be taken as obvious at all.

Recall the old principle of criminal investigation, these simple questions: who has a motive, who makes a net profit, who benefits? And immediately you have a long row of actors/factions standing in line who all may be involved as well - not just two women and one man in this case.

Strauss-Khan was involved in a serious process of decision making regarding some banking policies, decisions that likely would not come out the way the US wanted them to have. And he was taken out of the process by that plot. The timing was so striking that it immediately caught my suspicion, despite Strauss-Khan's reputation to be dog chasing women at every opportunity. The same alarm bell ringing back then I hear ringing in my head over the Assange "case".

[Jimbuna]

Okay then, let us scrap all judicial systems around the world for fear there are political motives or potential motives of any theme for that matter.

You make reference to Strauss-Khan but isn't the focus of his deeds now centred on France and not the US....or just a series of coincidental allegations?

What do you propose to put in there place (judicial systems)?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Okay then, let us scrap all judicial systems around the world for fear there are political motives or potential motives of any theme for that matter.

Where have I said something indicating that? I made no generalization for all crime cases there are. I just point out that sometimes things are not what they seem to be, and thus sometimes the standard routines and procedures necessarily fail or allow to get abused for totally different purpose than criminal investigation and "justice". It was like that with Strauss-Khan, and I think it is like that with Assange.

It is ironic, but Assange and this American Marine who now sits in prison, already are limited in their freedom, because they made public the lies and betrayals, the failures and cheatings of decision makers and politicians. But the politicians who lied and betrayed and failed and cheated still are free, and enjoy the shine and gloss of being called "victims" of evil "treason".

Assange would have had nothing to reveal and to report - if said politicians and decision-makers would not have played foul before. There were times when newspapers were seen as a vital pillar of a democratic system, serving in a function of checks and balances by reporting about what went wrong and where fraud and lie took over in the system. But this investigative journalosm has fallen victim to political correctness, lobbying, being bought up by propaganda- interests and being hijacked by bipartisanship. Or uncooperative media not playing tame and lame with the "system" are being ignored by the government. Or media by laws gets stripped of their sources, get threatened by legal sanctions, and their informants being intimidated by compulsory revealing of their identity. And this is the West, this is America! The conventional press fails in monitoring and in a way: controlling the political actors and the rules by which the game is played. Internet is taking over, at least it tries. Sites and projects like Wikileaks are a must. Nobody is left to confront governments and parties and elites with the threat of revealing it when they play foul.

Needless to say that those in power hate the idea to share it with the people. The fundaments on which some nations were founded, are hollow corpses only today, have been systematically eroded, and hijacked for being turned into something every different. this is my major criticism of the US, and Germany as well - and I honestly can'T say in which country the mess I desribed is bigger. To me, both are patients in coma, connected to the life-support machines of an intense-care station.

We are in desperate need of projects like Wikileaks. Because our governments and the whole political and business leader class have become our worst enemies.

[Jimbuna]

Well feel free to call me naive but even with its inherant faults I still trust our government more than those who would reveal all on the internet and in so doing possibly not giving a care of what the consequences may be for those such information leaking/details may affect.

If and I know that can be a big word, anyone is killed as a result of such an action then treason can be the only term and IIRC that still carries the death penalty in the UK for example.

I know it cuts both ways but people who hiding behind the internet and use it as a means of disclosure are no better than the politicians who ultimately make some of these life or death decisions in the first place.

[August]

I don't particularly care if anything they do to anything to Assange or not. The one that I want to see swing is the little traitor who gave him the information in the first place. He violated his oath, betrayed his country and put his comrades in arms in danger. For that he deserves to be put up against the wall and shot.

[Gerald]

Today, some Swedish websites are hit by cyber-attacks, these have an obvious connection to WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and the ongoing dispute over his extradition.So called ddos attacks (A DDoS attack (Distributed Denial of Service).According to the National Police IT unit.

[Platapus]

Honestly, I am not overly concerned with the likes of Assange. It is the Mannings that I want the government to go after.

Assange never held a position of trust in the United States and therefore legally had no responsibility to protect the information.

Manning, on the other hand did. Without the Mannings the Assanges of the world would be nothing.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Honestly, I am not overly concerned with the likes of Assange. It is the Mannings that I want the government to go after.

Assange never held a position of trust in the United States and therefore legally had no responsibility to protect the information.

Manning, on the other hand did. Without the Mannings the Assanges of the world would be nothing.

I said this once and got critisized by foreigners.

You better watch out.

If you hate the US, then be a rebel, don't join the military then work against us from the inside.

It's freaking disgusting. It chaps my backside, that this outright traitor is being treated with kid gloves by authorities, and revered as a hero by some...

It is disrespectful to all those who wore that uniform with noble purposes.

Though Assange is not blameless. He used donations from all over the world and implicitly worked to undermine the United states and allied nations, using treasonous methods, with no regard to anything, other than his own fame.

Now he's got it. He made his bed, enjoy the sleep.

When is Bradleys trial, and when can I expect a hanging for treason? Is it televised?

[Gerald]

A prominent role in the whole thing, while it should be said that Assange has had a lot of people around him who made hard work for him.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Back then, identity of the claimed victims and manner in which it appeared was put in doubt, and the story told also showed contradictions. I do not get the details together again out of the blue, but back then I only thought: this stinks to heaven, all of it. The whole story is in doubt, as a matter of fact.

That is not the opinion shared by the UK Supreme Court. I've linked their judgement in my previous post. The details simply don't bear out what you seem to be suggesting.

You may be so kind to believe that a justice system indeed is neutral and untouchable by politics and political manipulation - I am not so naive.

I never claimed it was so. I don't take the directly opposite view though, as you do below, that any judgement is automatically invalid. That gets all of us nowhere.

I take it for granted that the decision of any court hearing was pre-written by political lobbying in the background, no matter what he would say and others say.

You might not think you're naive, but saying something is so does not make it so.

Having faith without evidence in the unquestioned corruption of every development is exactly that - faith without evidence.

The whole thing is very likely a plot to arrest Assange by the Swedish, NO MATTER WHAT. And if it was like that, then Assange hardly decided to strip himself of any freedom when he jumped bail and fled to the embassy.

You're putting an awful lot of weight on that "if". Assange is responsible for his own actions. He knew that hiding in the Ecuadorian Embassy would create a diplomatic mess that still remains unresolved - at great expense to police/WikiLeaks supporters, and frankly my attention.

You know what a plot is,m do you? And you demand him to play by the rules of the plotters. You expect him, in other words, to act stupid.

I think he's acted stupidly enough already. Assange has to play by the same rules as the rest of us. We don't get the luxury of friendly embassies looking to tick off the US by helping us out when we have sexual crime allegations. We have to go to court and stand up for ourselves. Claiming that everyone is arrayed against you is egotistic nonsense.

And why Britain does not hand him over, when it is easier for them than for the Swedes as you claimed. Well, the Swedish plot was earlier, and it would draw bit too much attention to the dubious backgrounds if the Brits would opportunistically also construct a case to arrest him forever, or send him to the US.

This is nonsense. Britain does not hand him over to the US because it's the Swedish prosecutor who wants to talk to him.

There has been no extradition request by the US for this man.

Well, the Swedish plot was earlier, and it would draw bit too much attention to the dubious backgrounds if the Brits would opportunistically also construct a case

Let me get this straight - there was no UK-based plot (in an easier extradition regime) because the Swedish "plot" was earlier? No UK-based plot because they had accidentally already started plotting in Sweden? I hope someone in the CIA got fired for that one.

You're right in that it would be suspicious if the UK were to "construct" another legal case against Assange, but that they haven't doesn't in any way prove the fact that the Swedish case is also illegitimate.

Demanding the target of a plot to play by the rules of the plotters. I don't believe it. That is like expecting an enemy in battle to cooperate with one's own battle plan of how to wipe him out with as little own losses as possible. That would be a very foolish enemy indeed.

This only makes sense if the entire judicial and political systems of two democratic countries are coordinated perfectly to execute a very messy, poorly-planned and illogical operation.

[Skybird]

Tchocky, trust less in so-called "authorities" - starting with presidents and ending with courts.

It's almost always Mr. Janus you are talking to.

Assange has to play by the same rules as the rest of us.

Governments, parliaments, lobbies, big business almost always must do not. It's not four Janusses, but just one. Trust nobody, they do not deserve it.

You may see our states and their institutions as mainly trustworthy. I see them as mainly rotten, dysfunctional and untrustworthy. You ignore the nature of conspiracies and plots. I take them into account. You put the rule book over reality. I put reality over the ideal utopia described in the rule book.

And no, plots and conspiracies do not follow the rules that "all of us have to follow". Mr. Janus always shows the face that is the most opportunistic. That's his nature.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Tchocky, trust less in so-called "authorities" - starting with presidents and ending with courts.

It's almost always Mr. Janus you are talking to.

Throwing your hands in the air and declaring that everything is inside out and preordained by this mysterious cabal called "authority" doesn't get you anywhere. Evidence before faith. I'm saying that from what I see and read and deduce, accusations of plotting and treachery in this case don't make any sense. The source material doesn't add up and I'm not going to start filling in the blanks with half-baked conspiracy theories.

Governments, parliaments, lobbies, big business almost always must do not. It's not four Janusses, but just one. Trust nobody, they do not deserve it.

Yeah fine, privilege and power allows rules to be bent or broken. Any idiot knows that. That doesnt make everything a plot - the world simply doesn't work like that. At all.

You may see our states and their institutions as mainly trustworthy. I see them as mainly rotten, dysfunctional and untrustworthy. You ignore the nature of conspiracies and plots. I take them into account. You put the rule book over reality. I put reality over the ideal utopia described in the rule book.

But nothing you've posted about this issue makes any sense. For you it must be a plot, because the institutions are corrupt. Regardless of the evidence. If something doesn't make sense then it must be another part of the maskirovka.

[Catfish]

^ Yeah right. Look at the german "Treuhand" and then trust the "authorities".

http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/37/37484/1.html

The factory and resource inventory of East Germany was evaluated to have a value of 600 billion Euros, in 1989.

- When the "Treuhand" ceased to exist in 1994, East Germany was ruined, eonomically.
- 85 percent of the corporations now belonged to West Germany, 2,5 million east german workers had lost their job, and the "Treuhand" had debts of some 256 billion Euros.
- So roughly estimated 865 billion Euros just .. vanished.


Certainly, the german government-industry complex may be more corrupt than other countries' governments, but i assume most just do not want to know about such things.