Is SH5 the Future of Silent Hunter?

[Cavell]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I see you are confused again, but I am here to correct you. Whether someone "likes" an interface or not is purely a matter of personal taste and is totally irrelevant to an "opinion" on SH5, as you should know.

So by that logic, a game which had a horrible UI which rendered the game nearly unplayable wouldn't be classified as a bad game because it would be irrelevant to forming an opinion on the game itself? That's an interesting take.

The UI is what you use to play a game. Of course it's important to forming an overall opinion of it.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Cavell

So by that logic, a game which had a horrible UI which rendered the game nearly unplayable wouldn't be classified as a bad game because it would be irrelevant to forming an opinion on the game itself? That's an interesting take.

The UI is what you use to play a game. Of course it's important to forming an overall opinion of it.

no, I agree that a bad interface can ruin a game, do you know of a game that has that issue?

The UI in SH5 is a major improvement over the SH3/4 one IMHO. Take for example the periscope screen, look at all the improvements:

1. you can lock a target, but the scope is not locked to the center of the TGT. This allows you to work on the solution, while still being able to look around for other threats and allows you to easily target specific parts of the ship.

For example, lets say you want to shoot one torp in the bow section and one torp in the aft section. In SH3, your scope is locked to the center of the ship and you have to manually offest the gyro angle of each tube. In SH5, once you have the correct solution, you merely aim your scope at the bow, fire 1, aim at the stern and fire 2. Your gyro angle is set based on your scope's bearing. Much more user friendly;

2. the TDC is more flexible. It gives you access to all the same functions as the SH3/4 TDC, but also allows the user to directly type in the numbers you want to: range, AOB and speed. Something which you could not do directly in SH3/4.

The only thing missing is the ability to set gyro angles for each tube manually, but that has already been added by modders;

3. the TAI map which replaces the attack map is now part of every station. You can access it even while the game is paused, you can maximize it to work out your solution and then minimize it and keep it in view while looking in the scope which makes it easy to compare the two. You can drag it into any shape you want.

It is more practical and useful than the old ATTACK map. In SH3/4, if you were playing w. map updates "off" and wanted to plot target info on the NAV map, you had to switch between screens. Here, you can plot info directly on the TAI map, while still at the periscope station.

All and all, it shows that the devs paid attention to our complaints over the years and have come up with a periscope interface which is easier to use than the old one and a significant improvement IMHO. If however, someone wants to play with the old periscope screen, there is already a mod for that.

[Furia]

In my humble oppinion the future of the Silent Hunter series rest in its multiplayer posibilities.
The first really succesful Silent Hunter Game was Silent Hunter II that along Destroyer Command, allowed for serious and exciting multiplayer matches.

Was the first time we had real Tournament, Leagues, Flotillas............ Virtual life and thousands of hours of activity. Just visit the old Wolfpack League or the Eagle league pages and forums to remember how it was and the ammount of multiplayer combat hours we played. I remeber some online convoy combats that lasted up to 6 hours full of excitement.

Silent Hunter II was blooming by then and was the real initial success of the Silent Hunter saga.

Silent Hunters III, IV and V have only improved the graphics and the game inmmersion allowing you to walk around the sub, however they lack serious multiplayer capabilities thus basically MAINLY being used for single player, and this is where the trouble hits the waterline.

Multiplayer is today's keystone for a game success and most games strong point is their multiplayer activities.
This means activity, sales, virtual units (that recruit people and make then purchase the game.........) tournaments, competitions, trainings.....

Having a strong multiplayer option didn't mean you cannot play single player. Means you can have BOTH.

We have traded a supposedely Dinamic Campaing instead good Multiplayer capability.

Silent Hunter V best innovation beside the posibility of walking around the boat is that it is extremely highly moddable and the possibility of scripting.
And this are good news.
While the SHV it is a nice game and nice to play, it will get boring soon unless the modders improve it and until we have a possibility of having a Destroyer Command "option" to really start playing serious Naval Warfare.

The AI would never match the thrill of being hunted by a humman destroyer.

If Ubi want to keep the saga alive they must get the idea that unless they offer a credible multiplayer competitive mode or they would always have a "limping game" that would simply struggle to stay afloat.

[scrapser]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Huh I thought the V1 was a monstorus thing at least twice the size of an HE111 maybe I was wrong.

It sounds like you're thinking of the V2 which was big. It stood about 50 feet high and launched vertically like a conventional rocket.

It was one of my first Estes model rockets I built as a kid. I always thought of it as the epitomy of what a rocket should look like.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by Cavell

The UI is what you use to play a game. Of course it's important to forming an overall opinion of it.

Soon to be released UI for SH5. It retains SH5's simplicity, but adds some key elements.

[scrapser]

I think it's safe to say a standard interface has been established over the years...first by Silent Service in 1984 and it has continued to this day. Is it real? Is your computer a submarine?

Efforts were made to make the interface (stations) as realistic looking and functional as possible in SH3 and SH4. Personally if Ubi wants to dick around with the interface that's fine but they should have made the new interface optional so you could go to the realistic controls if you wish.

The new Star Wars Millenium Falcon edition of Silent Hunter 5 attack map is an anachronism. The chart reminds me of the holograph the Rebel base had showing how soon before the Death Star would be able to attack the moon. Somehow I don't feel like it's WW2 at that point.

I'm sure from a strictly functional standpoint it's wonderful but it detracts from being a submarine simulation. Once the modders figure out how to remove it and restore the standard stations, it will be much better.

I still think the best thing to do with SH5 is use it to create a modern version of SH3 and SH4. But better to wait for Ubisoft to release another Beta of the Pacific Theater and save the modders a lot of work. Then we can have "new" SH3 and SH4 simulations.

It would also be great if there is a way to strip out or disable the whole crew interaction thing. Leave in the part where you can walk around the sub and browse life on a submarine when you're bored. As a working interface I think it's falling on its face. Turns it into a submarine captain simulation instead of a submarine simulation.

[msxyz]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Huh I thought the V1 was a monstorus thing at least twice the size of an HE111 maybe I was wrong.

Review with photos of a 1:48 He111 model with V1 strapped beneath a wing. It also contains a bit of historic info.

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/a...t/bioll111.htm

[janh]

Originally Posted by scrapser

It would also be great if there is a way to strip out or disable the whole crew interaction thing. Leave in the part where you can walk around the sub and browse life on a submarine when you're bored. As a working interface I think it's falling on its face. Turns it into a submarine captain simulation instead of a submarine simulation.

(1) I think that is what Elenaiba meant in his post when he spoke of his teams design goal not necessarily being the same that people may have expected the game to be. I think what they had in mind is quite logic, i.e. to increase the immersion to a "Das Boot" like level you need a human component, i.e. you have to leave the submarine sim and make it a caption or crew simulation included. They may or may not have wanted to provide what most people here at subsim wanted it to be (see Neals review).

(2) I do have servere doubts about this trend to online games. Many games, like this play as well or even better as single player. Especially when you enjoy hours of running around a convoy to get into attack position with little action -- how many online players would join that? Many other games suffer from the same problem, and the AI in WITP-AE for my taste should have received more attention than it obviously did. But developing a strong AI is brain and cost intensive, and something that unlike eye-candy doesn't immediately show and support the sales factor.
However, many gamers may not have the time to join online games, and depend on others for playing. I think it is a nice addition to have, but if you build on only that, you will definitely loose a lot of customers.

[ReallyDedPoet]

The strength and some may say weakness ( but not me ) has always been how moddable this series has been.

The game itself is just a foundation, no matter what UBI put out, folks would not have been happy with it. There is a huge variety of opinions here. What may be a standard interface for one person, is not for the other. I have more of an issue with how the game plays then how it looks. There is no excuse for some of the ongoing bugs, glitches that have existed and still do.

Is it real? Is your computer a submarine?

I agree, unless we were there, or are presently a submariner it will never be real.

Do I want to play the same game over and over including using the same interface? No, I would get bored pretty quick. At first I did more than a few wtfs when I started with 5's UI, but with a few changes I am growing to like it. Plus there are mods that give give you the SH3\4 look.

As far as the crew interaction part of 5, again out of the box it is flawed, but who knows what modders will be able to do with it. As it is now there are already a few that make some nice changes to it.

I am not letting UBI off the hook yet, but like 3 and 4 before it, 5 just may go onto being a half decent sim. Time will tell.

[jason210]

I think it's done well to get this far. I never expected to see an SH5.

This franchise may soon be over, but I don't think it has anything to do with the quality of SH5 or DRM. It's more to do with trends in the gaming market and the economic difficulties that have plagued us for the last 18 months.

One of the most successful and biggest selling franchise's of all ended last year -with the death of Microsoft Flight Simulator. We saw the sacking of the development team and shelving of the product. That was really bad - the simulator had really become a platform for the development of sophisticated models that were like 80% functional flight decks.

But computers are hear to stay and they keep on getting more powerful. For me it all began with the PSION flight simulator in 1984. When I think of all the fun I've had since, I consider myself a fortunate person! We are one lucky generation! We enthusiasts ought to be grateful to have had these experiences of this kind!

Don't under-estimate the markets demand for this kind of entertainment. Soon we'll see a new breed of games combining the best of simulators like Silent Hunter and ARMA, with the best of MMORPGs like WOW and War Hammer. Real physics will replace point and click in these games. It will all be pay to play and it will all be worth it, and one day we'll look back and think about these games wonder what all this fuss and arguing was about. We'll look on SH5 with that same nostalgia we have when we think of when we think about our old ZX Spectrum and Atari and Amiga games.

[scrapser]

Originally Posted by janh

(1) I think that is what Elenaiba meant in his post when he spoke of his teams design goal not necessarily being the same that people may have expected the game to be. I think what they had in mind is quite logic, i.e. to increase the immersion to a "Das Boot" like level you need a human component, i.e. you have to leave the submarine sim and make it a caption or crew simulation included. They may or may not have wanted to provide what most people here at subsim wanted it to be (see Neals review).

(2) I do have servere doubts about this trend to online games. Many games, like this play as well or even better as single player. Especially when you enjoy hours of running around a convoy to get into attack position with little action -- how many online players would join that? Many other games suffer from the same problem, and the AI in WITP-AE for my taste should have received more attention than it obviously did. But developing a strong AI is brain and cost intensive, and something that unlike eye-candy doesn't immediately show and support the sales factor.
However, many gamers may not have the time to join online games, and depend on others for playing. I think it is a nice addition to have, but if you build on only that, you will definitely loose a lot of customers.

I personally do not want a sub captain simulation. Getting the crew to do their job is part of the day to day life on board and there will be good days and bad. That can be just as easily simulated with a randomizing function. Just as I do not play FPS games that are third person view (like Lara Croft for example). I prefer to see through my own eyes so the screen represents what I am seeing while onboard. I think having to run around the entire submarine to get things done is not simulating anything but that's just me.

As far as submarine simulations as experienced on a computer, I think they are the perfect companions for each other. A sub sim is the ultimate strategy game. You can sit down with a cup of coffee and for hours take in information and plan ahead. It is quite immersive in an intellectual way which is why I'm not so bent on the eye-candy.

There are two types of games out there...one is instant gratification (consoles are perfect for these games)...the other is intellectual and can include FPS if the AI is halfway decent. Simulations are obviously intellectual games.

[Furia]

Originally Posted by janh

(1)

(2) I do have servere doubts about this trend to online games. Many games, like this play as well or even better as single player. Especially when you enjoy hours of running around a convoy to get into attack position with little action -- how many online players would join that? Many other games suffer from the same problem, and the AI in WITP-AE for my taste should have received more attention than it obviously did. But developing a strong AI is brain and cost intensive, and something that unlike eye-candy doesn't immediately show and support the sales factor.
However, many gamers may not have the time to join online games, and depend on others for playing. I think it is a nice addition to have, but if you build on only that, you will definitely loose a lot of customers.

Well, when SHII and DC were released, we have as much players on MP than on Sp and even more. In my case once I finished the Campaing, I did all my destroyer Command time in Multiplayer and we had games daily. Some casual , some part of tournaments and competitions.

Most Subsim activity was around Wolfpack League and Eagle Flotilla.
This is when Subsim boosted player numbers and online activity.

Most of the Oldtimers here can tell you that most people participated on online combats. Of course with some exceptions

The reason people does not seem interested on this option is because they do not have it avalaible.

To be succesful, the game must have BOTH options so players have the choice to play single or multi.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by scrapser

I think having to run around the entire submarine to get things done is not simulating anything but that's just me.

On that last point, I thought at first that being able to walk though the entire boat was just a marketing gimmick since I was perfectly happy with the SH3/4 model. However, after having spent a few weeks in my virtual Type VII, I am sold on the concept.

Having to go down the ladder to dive, going to the conning tower to use the attack scope, the command room to use the observation scope, the sonar room to use the sonar. You get a very good feel for the size of a sub, the layout, where everything is. I find I more naturally use the observation scope or the attack scope as they were meant to be used.

When running deep, I also spend a lot more time than I used to at 1x, just standing around or pacing the command room, watching the crew, listening to reports. I find I will naturally move to check the actual dials in the boat rather than a popup screen. I now know where all the important dials are located on the sub.

It is very immersive....

[Cavell]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

no, I agree that a bad interface can ruin a game, do you know of a game that has that issue?

Yes. The Assassin's Creed PC port springs to mind.

However, what you said was, "Whether someone "likes" an interface or not is purely a matter of personal taste and is totally irrelevant to an "opinion" on SH5, as you should know."

On the one hand, you say whether or not someone likes SH5's UI is a matter of personal taste and totally irrelevant to forming an opinion on SH5, and then you go on to agree that disliking an interface can ruin a game. That seems contradictory.

I'm not for or against the SH5 UI, having never played with it, but someone stating that the new glass cockpit design makes them dislike the game? That's a perfectly valid reason for disliking it, that's all I was getting at. Speaking as someone with absolutely no firsthand experience of it and going solely off of what I've read around here, I'm curious why they didn't just slap a few digital MFDs and maybe a HUD up and call it a day, but that's me.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Medzell

God! Do you people never do anything other than bleat?

If you don't like it, don't run it. Stick with something you DO like and stop behaving like petulant children

+1

Simply because if you explained your SH5 woes to any of the other 99.9999999% of the worlds non-subsiming population - thats what they'd tell ya .

Sh5 is bit of a mess with some good potential.
IMHO You dont know what you got till its gone.