America = doomed (merged many times)

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I know we´re getting OT but:
Could you please tell me how we started WWI all alone?

All alone? No. But you must admit had Germany stayed neutral millions of people on both sides wouldn't have died in that war, including my Great Grandfather August Karl who gave his life for Germany just 90 years ago last month.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by August

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.

sure...use the WW2 card

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by August

All alone? No. But you must admit had Germany stayed neutral millions of people on both sides wouldn't have died in that war, including my Great Grandfather August Karl who gave his life for Germany just 90 years ago last month.

Same goes for UK, France, USA, Turkey, Italy....
(Sorry for your great Grandfather though...that war was really pointless beyond imagination.)

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Same goes for UK, France, USA, Turkey, Italy....

C'mon now, Germany was a major instigator and player in that war. We were practically dragged into it years after it started.

[August]

Originally Posted by Morts

sure...use the WW2 card

Against Mr. "Holier than thou" Skybird? You betcha....

[Schroeder]

How about France and the UK?

I still don't see why Germany is always blamed to have started it all.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by August

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?

I wouldn't go so far as to call everything Sky says as lies and propaganda, as even in the worst cases, there is often a shred of truth to the sources he posts. As Americans, our priority should be rectifying the position our elected representatives have put us in and embracing a policy of trade and non-interventionism as soon as we feasibly can. These are the things that made our country great in an unprecedentedly short span of time, and we must reeturn to these ideals if we are to survive and maintain our position in the global economy.

As great a nation as she is, America is not without fault, and it is high time that we returned to a limited foreign policy and the pursuit of economic prosperity through a free-market model. Our efforts to spread "Democracy", after a fashion, and freedom throughout the world have gone largely unappreciated, and in fact we have bungled such attempts on many occassions. However noble the intents of our predecessors may have been, they have not ultimately resulted in success.

Pursuing such a policy, economic dominance will return to America in time, as other nations scramble to adjust or fix their economies through heavy-handed statist measures. Our objective now, should be to honorably withdraw from our foreign commitments, making sure to leave as little resentment as possible behind, while focussing on a free economic model. If only this nation, with the resources it has, could embrace the economic freedom of nations like Switzerland or Hong Kong, while preserving the personal liberties that set us apart. What a nation we could be!

Who, in the world, would not wish to flock to a nation that would guarantee such freedoms? Once again we could lift Liberty's lamp beside the Golden Door. Give us your oppressed masses, your gifted few, your disheartened people yearning to breathe free, and we shall show the world a nation of nations, where every person's destiny is their own.

No matter where one hails from, no matter what their history, all people yearn for freedom. America was that. America needs to become that again. Freedom to prosper. Freedom to fail. Freedom to try again. Freedom to believe or disbelieve as we choose. Freedom to lead. Freedom to serve. Freedom to be.

As a nation, we have lost sight of the ideals of Freedom. Equality of opportunity became equality of outcome. Obviously, shortfalls must be made up somewhere, and the result was a classic system of wealth redistribution that destroys free market incentives. Even worse, the power necessary to enforce such intentions was concentrated in the hands of an elite, with predictable results. Despite all our efforts, the poor remain poor, and the rich remain rich. All we have done, in the interests of promoting freedom, is to make the poor poorer, the rich richer, and the middle-class works harder.

In any system, including capitalism, there will always be a priveledged few. The difference between freedom and statism is that where the priveledged few must earn their keep by providing jobs and production in a free system, they need only produce lies and false promises in a statist system.

The U.S. is, indeed, perched upon a precipice today. Should we follow the cries for more state intervention by people who want instant gratification, we will surely topple over the edge.

So Sky often does have a point, even if it isn't always what he intends.

Originally Posted by August

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.

Believe it or not, I really hate disagreeing with you, August, but that assesment isn't fair at all to the Germans. The First World War can not be pinned on any single nation, though Germany did have her share of the blame because of her alliance with Austria-Hungary, but it was Kaiser Wilhelm who cast about for peace on the eve of war, not King Geroge V of England, and certainly not Winston Churchill, who was actively interested in suppressing Germany if only to maintain British economic dominance. Then of course, we have the infamous Versailles treaty, in which Wilson's 17 points were casually discarded by the British and French, setting the stage for a war of reparation from a desperate Germany.

World War 2, it could be argued, aside from the obvious guilt of the Versailles Treaty, similarly cannot be blamed on Germany. While the popular theory is that Germany brutally occupied Alsaice-Lorraine and the Sudetenland, it is worth noting that these regions were actually in favor of return to the Reich. Even more interesting is the usual lack of any discription as to what happened to the non-sudeten parts of Czecheslovakia, which were, incidentally, occupied by Poland:hmm: . That poor nation led by a military dictatorship that refused to return Danzig to Germany because an extremely irate Winston Churchill gave them a war guarantee despite the fact that Britain only had a 2 division land army at the time. Poland was sacrificed for an excuse to go to war with Germany and the result was that not only did Poland not gain freedom, but 13 Eastern European nations were lost behind the Iron Curtain for 70 years.
Hitler, monster that he was, had no intention of going to war with Poland, which he considered a possible ally against the Soviets, and he says as much in Mein Kampf. Nor did he desire war with the West. His principal concern was the Soviet Union.
Far be it from me to defend Hitler and certainly not his holocaust, but the alternative we chose was a damn sight worse than a reunified Germany waging war against the Soviets with the support of Europe.

As a conservative, August, I'm sure you know better than to trust the hand that rocks the cradle for all your historical information. I'm sorry for being a bit of a smartass, and I love our country as much as you do, but if we really love America, it is our civic duty to question our leadership and, in doing so, keep the state in check.

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

How about France and the UK?

I still don't see why Germany is always blamed to have started it all.

I never said they started "it all", that's just your spin on it. But you must admit with a peaceful Germany WW1 never gets much beyond a regional conflict and certainly not to the four year meat grinder it turned out to be...

[MothBalls]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I have no agenda, I am simply angry, and with all right we non-Americans can have, since we pay the bills.

Ever see the series from James Burke called Connections? It was a good show telling about how one small event in the past can drastically change the future.

1939 America was isolationist. It was drug into world events that created the military industrial complex and the first superpower. America didn't win the war by itself, but it did make significant contributions. Please tell us what your world would be like today if they didn't make those contributions? Give the US some credit. After all, they did invent the deep fried twinkie.

I think Bill Maher hit the nail on the head a couple years before this report came out:

New Rules:


Side note: Love what Maher says about . Funny as hell.

[August]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Believe it or not, I really hate disagreeing with you, August, but that assesment isn't fair at all to the Germans.

It is no less fair than his accusation that the US owes the world,... well heck, let me just quote him:

give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets.

You want fairness? Guess you ought to start with that. Personally i'm in favor of returning to isolationism. Mind our own business and let the world sort itself out on its own.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by August

I never said they started "it all", that's just your spin on it. But you must admit with a peaceful Germany WW1 never gets much beyond a regional conflict and certainly not to the four year meat grinder it turned out to be...

Again, what about all the other nations that were so eager to fight? But we are derailing this thread. My point is just that Germany didn't start WWI. It was startet by other events and then almost the whole of Europe (including Germany) went to war.

I'm just as sick of being blamed for WWI (WWII is already enough) as you are for being blamed for every problem on the planet.

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Again, what about all the other nations that were so eager to fight? But we are derailing this thread. My point is just that Germany didn't start WWI. It was startet by other events and then almost the whole of Europe (including Germany) went to war.

I'm just as sick of being blamed for WWI (WWII is already enough) as you are for being blamed for every problem on the planet.

I can certainly understand that...

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by August

I can certainly understand that...

What problems on the planet? :p

[TDK1044]

Originally Posted by August

Personally i'm in favor of returning to isolationism. Mind our own business and let the world sort itself out on its own.

I agree with you. Over the next twenty years, I want to see us get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and use that and other money to invest heavily in multiple alternate energy technologies.

We have everything we need within our Country to be totally self sufficient in all things within twenty years, we just need a very different mind set in order to achieve it.

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by August

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?

August, he is just venting misdirected guilt from being born in a country that gave us Hitler and the Munich Olympics...