Tibet, China and Olympics

[Skybird]

Admitting that one was wrong so freely, takes some good will and spine, thus it tells something about the person. Maybe you were "just" too easy-minded where I thought you were a hardcore follower of the party - but with that impression i may have been wrong myself about you, too.

The object of the controversy about a former opinion is removed, so okay - no hard feelings then.

[Skybird]

The athletes winning in Peking, will be in a very powerful political position, and that politicians look for the closeness to sports and successful winner, hardly is by random chance and by the individual politician's personal interest. Just imagine how bad Peking would look if winners of medals would nevertheless speak out freely in interviews or during the ceremonies! Just imagine winner would give back their medals in huge numbers, or would refuse them during ceremonies! It should not be, but it is a fact that today sports and politics go hand in hand. Athletes often are called "ambassadors"; of a nation. There are "national teams". Why this if politics - and sometimes nationalism - had nothing to do with it? just imagine some of the sport events and sport duels between the USSR and the USA during the cold war: hockey, for example. Sports cannot escape to be political these days - and many athletes, I fear, live in a both naive and opportunistic dreamworld were they think they could practise their sports unpolitical. That is comfortable and easy, and avoids facing tough questions, and does not force anybody to question his engagement - but nevertheless it is unrealistic, and in this meaning: wrong.

[peterloo]

Good to see consenus reached.

Now, every of us knows that there is something going wrong with the PRC government when they try to crackdown this group. Being a Chinese, I don't wanna see my people fighting each other. The government might have over-reacted.

The blockage of information also implies, something REALLY bad is going to happen

p.s. I am not a hardcore follower of the PRC government. I do criticize them, especially in some of their policies (like the medical problems ~ let say, the doctors will administrate a large amount of medicine to cure the slightest disease, since the more medicine they sell, the more they gain. They will administrate glucose supplements when you get a flu, LOL)

[peterloo]

Originally Posted by skybird

The athletes winning in Peking, will be in a very powerful political position, and that politicians look for the closeness to sports and successful winner, hardly is by random chance and by the individual politician's personal interest. Just imagine how bad Peking would look if winners of medals would nevertheless speak out freely in interviews or during the ceremonies! Just imagine winner would give back their medals in huge numbers, or would refuse them during ceremonies! It should not be, but it is a fact that today sports and politics go hand in hand. Athletes often are called "ambassadors" of a nation. there "national" teams. Why this if politics - and sometimes nationalism - had nothing to do with it? just imagine some of the sport events and sport duels between the USSR and the USA during the cold war: hockey, for example. Sports cannot escape to be political these days - and many athletes, I fear, live in a both naive and opportunistic dreamworld were they think they could practise their sports unpolitical. That is uncomfortable, and avoids facing tough questions, and does not force anybody to question his engagement - but nevertheless it is unrealistic, and in this meaning: wrong.

Certainly, it would be awesome if sport would not be politicalized, yet it was clear that Beijing would like to exploit this chance to show off, and try to improve the image of China among the foreigners.

In the past, we got Ping Pong Diplomacy, with Nixon sending the USA table tennis team to China in order to team up with China (to hedge against USSR). Knowing that, it quite inevitable that table tennis, or other sports, has a certain factor of political issue embedded within

However, this backfired, when the Tibet crisis comes.

Besides the political problem, I would also like to highlight the problem of the athletes. When they were young, lots of them went training. As time passes, the best of the best will go to the national team while those with relatively less impressive results will be abondoned. They wasted their whole childhood in training, only to realise that they could gain nothing in return. This, compounded by the lack of government assisstance, is going to be another highlight in China.

[Steel_Tomb]

China has admitted using lethal force against protestors, at least four have been wounded. Knowing the Chinese regime this means that about 5 have been killed at least. Hate to think what else has happened over there. Wonder if they've ever heard of tasers or rubber bullets? If its taken nearly a week for this information to come to light, what other atrocities are being carried out as we speak?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200803...t-43a8d4f.html

[STEED]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

I'm going to buy you a drink for that comment.

[Trex]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

A new Olympic Event.... Dodgeing Bullets.

Javelin Receiving?

[kiwi_2005]

Free Trade with China will make govenments pretend nothing is wrong. Our Prime Minister and her collegues were big supporters of the Tibetians this was before they became Government. Now they dont want to know about the Tibetian problem cause of free trade:hmm:

[Trex]

WRT bringing manufacturing capability back to the Western world. All it would take is for The Consumer to start asking, “Have you the same thing made in the USA? ("Vous avez- quelque chose faite en France?" "Hve εσείς το ίδιο πράγμα που κατασκευάζεται στην Ελλάδα?” “Habben Sie die gleiche Sache hergestellt in Deutschland?”) It all hinges on profit. If the majority of people objected enough to supporting Chinese practices to stop buying things made in China, the corporate world would find another place to have things made. Would it were that easy, of course. The vast majority of people will prefer to pay a dollar less and hang the consequences.

[peterloo]

Free trade, and not willing to hurt China in these difficult days, of course, is one of the best cards that Chinese own in her inventory. Nobody wants China plays it by putting a embargo in his export or import, right?

If China do play such a card, the effect on the factories and workers its huge. If thousands of workers are laid off, the government could do nothing except reversing its decision, since the pressure exerted will be extraordinary huge.

About the lethal force issue. Despite my Chinese identity I don't support or avocate the usage of brute force against the riot in any way. Not only the problem is not properly settled but the image of China is also hurt. What China should do, is to take a step back, and start negotiating with those Tibetans now.

The same rules applies to Tibetans, they should also take a step back and start negotiation now. It is disguisting to see people of the same race fighting each other, as it always represents a bad omen, let say, the communists and nationalists battled in the 1920s and 1930s. That paved a way to Japanese agression, since Jiang is unwilling to fight the Japanese unless the communist is all wiped out.

The problem is that, all this is legal in mainland China. Since the country is called "people's republic of China", if the government don't consider the preparators and the executors of the "rebellion" as people, the are not protected by law. In the June 4 incident, the government didn't consider the protesters as people, so they can attack them using tanks and guns.

[peterloo]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

Hypocritical? Yes, absolutely agree. Political stuff, is probably the most hypocritical stuff in the world. Lies, betrayal, and deception is all common in the politics. Pathetic to say that, yet the a large proportion of world leaders are hypocrites.

[Dmitry Markov]

For me all this situation looks like a foreign intelligence's work: look, less of all China needs all this riots now. In recent years China and Dalai-Lama both had more calm rithorics, China have built a unique highland railway to Lhasa, they've made restoration of Potala, they've spent a lot of money into infrastructure of region increasing life's level of Zhang as well (which they didn't couple of decades earlier). But with increasing of infrastructure a lot of foreign "humanitarian" organisations appeared and opened their offices in Tibet. And now just before the greatest celebration which is object of national pride some gang of not very cool-minded persons starts to ruin all this without ANY trigger reason. This is VERY important - because all social disorders with internal reason usually start after some trigger happening this can be an order of authorities, ethnical crime or something. In case with Tibetans there was no such happening which in sum with growth of "humanitarian organisations" may point at foreign intelligences work. Somebody is interested in destabilizing China.
That's why I peronally won't boycott Olympics (though anyway I won't be able to visit them).
As for use of force - If I was the decision making person in the Police and if on my territories was a riot and if I had information that mob is killing civilians and burning their homes and properties - having in mind a task of preservation of my soldiers lives - I would give an order to use firearms. And being at soldier's place having such an order... That's why I don't serve - I hate such decisions and I undertand that they are inevitable in any country East, West or elsewhere... Remember France in 1968 or 1969 (don't remember exactly).
And that's another reason why I personally won't boycott Olympics.

Best Regards

[Trex]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

For me all this situation looks like a foreign intelligence's work: look, less of all China needs all this riots now. In recent years China and Dalai-Lama both had more calm rithorics, China have built a unique highland railway to Lhasa, they've made restoration of Potala, they've spent a lot of money into infrastructure of region increasing life's level of Zhang as well (which they didn't couple of decades earlier). But with increasing of infrastructure a lot of foreign "humanitarian" organisations appeared and opened their offices in Tibet. And now just before the greatest celebration which is object of national pride some gang of not very cool-minded persons starts to ruin all this without ANY trigger reason. This is VERY important - because all social disorders with internal reason usually start after some trigger happening this can be an order of authorities, ethnical crime or something. In case with Tibetans there was no such happening which in sum with growth of "humanitarian organisations" may point at foreign intelligences work. Somebody is interested in destabilizing China.

Conspiracy theory writ large...

Why is it that we've let Occam's Razor get so damned dull?

[Trex]

Interesting spin on the issue - face.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1047118.html

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Trex

Interesting spin on the issue - face.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1047118.html

Yep. I am not into this face-importance myself, i am staying in the background, or confront what I see to be worth to confront directly, that is how i am. However I am quiet aware of this face-issue you see in Asia, and especially strong in Japan and China, and accept it to be a characteristic of their way of living and of their culture you don't find a workaround for - you have to deal with this characteristic of theirs, like it or not, no matter if you understand it, or think of it as an annoyance.

The Dalai Lama since years did not demand complete independence anymore. Some of the investement the chinese made in Tibet, served the country good. He also says that he wants to act not against the chinese, but wishes they would accept to work with him and both sides cooperate together with the goal of Chinese sovereignity but tibetan autonomy as a goal.

the hysteria some chinese officials show towards him, especially the chief of the Tibetan KP on my mind, unfortunately is beyond face-saving, i have to say, but is what I just said: hysteria. the Chinese allowed themselves to be carried away so far with their demonizing of the Dalai Lama, that they seem to have burned all bridges behind them indeed. So, face-saving yes or no, I nevertheless think it is their turn to make the first steps towards the tibetans. Right now they behave and lie and bite and growl like a dog with rabies. And a dog with rabies certainly shows no face worth to be saved, but earns it's owner more bad than good reactions from his surrounding environment. The damn thing is, that you do not have to deal so much with only chinese politicians, but with communist party-demagogues not defending china alone, but their party interests and their wish to keep the party in total and absolute power. If the Chinese government would have more in similiar with for example the Taiwanese government form, the Tibetan issue probbaly would have found a peaceful solution longer ago.