Modding Ethic/Courtesy Rules (Agreed)

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Yes, I do care to elaborate.

It is your opinion that the whole debate is "moot."

I didn't say the whole debate was moot. I said "from a legal perspective alone" it is moot, which is not opinion, but fact. I see though that I should have formulated it as "from solely a legal perspective", which is what I really meant.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by danlisa

@ heartc

Would you mind if we discussed this via PM? I don't feel this issue of legality etc is required in this thread.

Infact, I suspect a moderator will eventually remove those posts, if only to keep the thread on topic.

EDIT - In the process of editing..................

I didn't bring it up, I only commented on it after it was presented incorrectly and approved by people who should know better. But as far as I'm concerned, this point is settled and I will discontinue it here. Thank you.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by heartc

...So how can members of the GWX team - which are already familiar with the legal situation I assume - confirm his post?

I have not "confirmed" anything and I have not entered into any legal agreement with Ubisoft.

I interpreted von Manteuffel's statement in the spirit of support that it appears he is attempting to show.

Any "derailment" of the thread I am sure was unintentional... and in accordance with a previous post, I am no longer using the word "rules"... but "guidelines" instead for common courtesy modding ethics.

Let us attempt to return to the topic gentlemen.

[daft]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You know a thought just hit me.... God help the guy who genuinly thinks up something on his own, posts it, and then someone else try and "virtually" sue him over "copyright" infringements.

A few years ago, I can't count the number of times i genuinly thought up something on my own, posted about it, only to find out someone figured it out a few weeks prior. New guys are going to run into that ALOT. Coming down with an moralistic hammer is a great way to stiffle budding creativity or discourage participation.

I'm going to sound like some sort pf crazed groupie now so please don't bee scared () but your insightful and level-headed posts would be a credit to any discussion forum. May you never stop posting on Subsim.

[quote=JScones]

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

asking permission to use the mod - forget it, your in fantasy land. a free mod for free download to the public carries no such obligation. asking modders to do this will discourage the sharing of new mods that didn't go to all that trouble.

This is rubbish. I release freeware which is used much wider than just the Subsim community. I have certain clauses in my licence agreements that state that contact must be made with me under certain circumstances.


REPLY = this was taken completely the wrong way, which goes to show how easy words cans send a different message than intended. you were supposed to understand from this that "joe" wasn't able to get in touch with everyone to get "permission" so now joe has to either chance catching tons of flack over posting a mod without following the rules or (and i believe many in this situation will do the later) keep the mod to himself rather than risk drama over it.

now large mods are a little different as the work is often by several modders and has large content so stricter guidelines should apply to those than small mods.

Originally Posted by Von Manteuffel

The "credit" and "plagiarism" issue doesn't concern me directly. I couldn't mod my way out of a paper sack; but I am concerned that the issue could severely damage and/or fragment the Subsim modding community which, I believe, should be prevented at all costs.

Someone earlier mentioned that people might need lawyers if this thread follows a certain path. I've consulted several friends who are lawyers, some of them copyright specialists and the message is plain and simple. Essentially, in most jurisdictions, modders own the copyright of their mods ( if in no other form than owning the intellectual copyright to their work ) The fact that mods are made available for download and use, free of charge is an irrrelevance. A modder can give away, rent, or sell his mods, with, or without conditions, but the means of distribution and terms of use do not remove, or diminish the modder's ownership of his, or her own work.


If those who feel that their work has been misappropriated wish to sue, they can do and they'd probably win - but the only ones who would benefit would be the lawyers. So, in the absence of any form of redress ( and I share Jaeson's worries about "punishments" - as well as doubting that any could be devised which would be effective, or enforceable. He is also correct when he points out that it is not the role of the Subsim Moderators to decide guilt and innocenc) we have to rely on people

a) understanding the law and b) doing the right thing.

i think we all share the same sentiments about this but i am sure your lawyer friends did not have all the facts or they would not have told you we can claim ownership of something that is already copywrited and owned by Ubisoft.
as well as who came up with the mod first is a very grey area to argue.

the files in the mods we use come from ubisoft so how can we sue claiming they are ours if Ubisoft already owns them?

i'm only saying the legal part of your comments don't sound correct in that regard.

Originally Posted by CaptainCox

I agree with whats been said hear 100% but...who will finally draw this up, basically who will have the respect or approval to put this down as a set of "guidelines" as it stands now its a lot of opinions which is good. Being relatively new to the SH modding scene I feel that there is a lot of ppl with very responsible attitudes and less of the opposite, and that's great. But as i said, who will final draw this up. Mr.Stevens maybe would be the right guy (only thinking loud here)

i think the best person to do this would be Kpt Lehmann

as far as i'm concerned he has my respect and i believe the respect of a very large number of other members. being a person who had a large mod pirated gives him unique perspective into the issue and he is fair and level headed. he gets my vote.

[CaptainCox]

Pirated!!! GUYS! I am so out of the loop here. Can someone fill me in, PLEASE! or is it a "hot potato"?

[q65]

I see this as guidelines within the community.
If I were able to produce a mod it would be because I respect community. I would hope that the community would respect me and use my mod and give me credit for what I have done. If someone when in the community doesn't wish to respect me then I have the right to call this person out and let the rest of the community discuss and take action. For the most part I think this has gone this way. I lurk alot.
All this stuff reminds me of the Godfather movies and The GWX is the "Corelone" family. Rightfully so. If you mess with them and disrespect them then you should feel the wraith and swim with the fishes.

[q65]

OHHH I dont mean Swim with the fishes literally I mean it figuritivly and by that I say you are forced outside the community and not given the respect you desire by producing mods for the community. Dont want anyone to think I want someone to actually swim with the fishes.

[danlisa]

Originally Posted by q65

All this stuff reminds me of the Godfather movies and The GWX is the "Corelone" family. Rightfully so. If you mess with them and disrespect them then you should feel the wraith and swim with the fishes.

I really like that analogy. :rotfl:

But I must say (I know you didn't mean it that way, only as an example ) for clarity, that although the GWX Crew maybe very active in the defense of their hard work and sometimes it comes off as pack rape but we are never going to go to some of the lengths many think we are capable of.

The GWX Crew is a very friendly and tight knit community within SubSim and as such we will always leap to a crew members aid. Nothing more than that really.

q65, I'm glad you've come out of hiding & please don't not feel that I have in any way misunderstood your post but I needed to state what I did as it could be misconstrude by other members.

@ CaptainCox

There have been instances in the past but I think they're best left in the past. Unless the Kpt needs comment to clear things up.

[U-Bones]

In the end you will just be trading a vague unwritten code that can be ignored at will with a more specific written code that can be ignored at will.

It's the nature of the toothless beast. Add the anonymous and unaccountable layer and you have bitten off more than you can possibly chew. And you will still be unsatisfied, jerks will still be jerks.

[CaptainCox]

Originally Posted by danlisa

@ CaptainCox

There have been instances in the past but I think they're best left in the past. Unless the Kpt needs comment to clear things up.

Cheers...I get the drift sort a. I leave it at that.

[q65]

I thank you for the help. I'm not looking for trouble with anyone. I think this is a very helpful community and I have enjoyed the discussion alot.
The Modders in this community for the most part are very good people. One or two bad apples but they disappear quickly and I feel in the proper way. They are called out and the community on a whole deals with it and the person disappears cuz nobody pays attention to them. What sucks is when the good ones leave cuz they feel beaten up by these people who feel they have to work outside the community. I applaud Kpt. for addressing this and trying to keep what has been established and keeping my favourite game alive. The group of people take to much grief at times but they are easy targets cuz they are the top dogs and lots of people like to take shots at them.
The GWX mod is a fantastic addition to a good game. I have been playing for a year and a half now and enjoy it more everyday. They are very helpful and respectful and I don't blame them one bit for trying to protect what they have worked for. Respect. They have mine

[Von Manteuffel]

i think we all share the same sentiments about this but i am sure your lawyer friends did not have all the facts or they would not have told you we can claim ownership of something that is already copywrited and owned by Ubisoft.
as well as who came up with the mod first is a very grey area to argue.

the files in the mods we use come from ubisoft so how can we sue claiming they are ours if Ubisoft already owns them?

i'm only saying the legal part of your comments don't sound correct in that regard.

It's an area of legal "niceties" perhaps best illustrated by example. Let's take the Beatles song "Hard Days Night" - copyright Lennon & McCartney/ Northern Songs etc. If someone were to write a comedy pastiche, using some of the original words and the original tune / arrangement etc. ( with permission, of course) then the writer of the pastiche would hold modified copyright on the parts of the song which he/she had changed, while Lennon & McCartney would retain their copyright on the parts which remained unchanged. I once worked with a band who specialised in pastiches of current Pop hits. To perform / record their pastiches, they had to get permission from the original composer(s) / lyricist(s), but once that ws granted, the band owned copyright of the pastiche, or at least the part (usually the lyrics ) they had changed, while the composers of the original retained their copyright. So if someone else performed / recorded the band's pastiche without permission, they had full legal rights to seek redress - even though they did not own the original, only the permitted pastiche.

Essentially, one has ownership of things which one has created, but if that creation is based on someone else's work, one must seek permission to change the original and not proceed until that permission i granted. Once it is granted ownership of the parts changed lies with the person who created the changes, while the original creator owns the original version.
As I've said, these are legal niceties and interesting talking points, but let's keep this thread on-stream and heading towards resolving the key issue of guidelines for modders.