[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[Rockin Robbins]

I run SH4 in a window. That way I don't have to use alt-tab to shell out. I merely click outside to do what I want, leaving SH4 running as if nothing had ever happened. I've never had any problems switching foreground applications that way either.

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

This is going to drive you NUTS! I loaded the test mission by unzipping it straight into my Single Mission folder in my current installation. Everything worked perfectly!

The interception was as advertized. First came the sonar contact (which I was able to pick up manually before the operator's announcement. Then, with BOTH periscopes raised, I got a radar contact on the same bearing. I tested all buttons and they worked, including the radar's on/off switch.

Next I lowered the attack scope leaving the Observation (Night) scope up. Radar continued to work. I lowered that one and the radar went off, and came back on when the scope went back up. The map contacts were intermittent until the target was inside around 8,000 yards.

From that point fearing discovery of the raised scope, I lowered it and proceeded perpendicular to the target's track until I was about 700 yards off the track, and then waited. When the target bearing reached 320 degrees, I fired the two electric torps, and when the first one hit, the next four Mark 14's. I turned away at high speed and repeated the firing sequence with the stern tubes. Success! All 10 hit, and the 10th one put it down. No sound problems. No visual problems. No radar problems.

Now, can I just load the DATA version in your single mission to the data version in my live game? Wouldn't that incorporate the changes you made for the Single Mission?
I tried to upload (cut and paste) a small JPG image, but it won't take. I tried it as an attachment, but the image is only a thumbnail. Oh, well.

Questions remain: Why does the Periscope radar in Propbeanies Test Mission work perfectly, but I have NO surface radar when I add the Periscope radar to my Balao in an existing career? I just tried it again, with no joy. I turned on the SD (using the former Raise/Lower mast button and got the radar on message. I then clicked on the surface radar button (doesn't light) and checked the screens. No power to either screen. The on/off buttons on the screens do not work. I raised the Night scope. Nothing changed. It just does not work in a career configuration, but works perfectly in the single mission.

Is there an element in the test single mission that I can implement to the existing SH4 FOTARSU install to make the career boat operate the same as the single mission boat? Both are Balao; both are post-January 1945. I just don't get it.
I need a drink, and here it is 10:35 am on Sunday. Grrrrr.

[CapnScurvy]

About the ST radar, or radar in general.

The ST radar "antenna head" is in the Night (Observation) Periscope. If you're not at Periscope Depth, or don't have the Night Periscope raised above the water line, you'll not have the SJ Surface Search station units work at all. Why would they........the radar antenna is below the water line, and/or still in the conning tower shears?? Raise the Night Periscope for ST Radar use. If the sea state is rough......meaning you're at 10 mph wind speed, you may have to raise your depth of the sub to compensate for waves breaking near, or over, the radar antenna. This is true with all radar usage. For SD and most SJ radar antennas use the "Radar Depth" key for calm sea states (zero to five mph winds), but plan to fudge the depth in higher winds resulting in rough sea conditions. With the ST periscope antenna, make sure its above the water line (whatever the wave action is) and have it extended out of its shears.

Secondly, we have no control over what "Gameplay Options" a player may have set up for his game. If you've set the option of "Realistic Sensors" to control Hydrophone/Sonar; Radar output, you'll get radar blips to appear, disappear, reappear, with every sweep of the radar signal. This is a stock game feature that's supposed to mimic a radar signal that comes and goes with the rocking of the boat.....even in calm, zero wind conditions. When you find yourself in a 10 mph wind speed (which is the third of four weather conditions/sea states), you'll really have a tough time getting the radar to be productive. This isn't something we can change. The game sets the degree of difficulty with the "options". We either use them or we don't.

This particular "option" isn't the only factor in having radar work as expected. Crew skill/experience also plays a part when relying on radar detection.

With the many variables available, you can't expect us to know what each players "option" settings he's using, or what other factors like weather conditions, or crew experience may play a part in why does a particular thing seem to work or not? The very fact players decide to add mods to Fotrs Ultimate, then complain about outcomes, and game behavior, is beyond our scope of explanation. How a player uses his game is his business, but when they don't know that adding mods together, or how to keep their game clean with "saved" information, may make a game unstable........it's beyond our control.

============

I do think there may be another reason for not seeing equipment applied as expected when using a Campaign game. It's my belief that the game has a flaw with keeping "dates" correctly when applying them over longer periods of time (which is exactly what is expected of a Campaign game that extends beyond one set of equipment's "existence" date into another). I think this may also come into play when you push a Campaign game from one year into the next.......the game actually loses tract of where it is, or know what new equipment is supposed to be applied to the sub when requested......so it doesn't!

For a long time I've seen the stock game having trouble with "dates"......it uses dates like September 31, April 31, or February 29......THEY DON"T EXIST! Yet, these dates are throughout the stock game! Or, having one piece of equipment "end" on the same date as a newer version "start" date......the game can't decide which to use if they are both "active" on the same date!!

With Fotrs Ultimate we've tried to eliminate these kinds of issues, but there may be more to this "date" problem than just fixing their obvious stock game errors........it may be the game engine can't keep a running account of where it is from one year to the next!!! I've not proposed this before, but it may very well be we can not rely on the game to keep tract of a Campaign game beyond a certain point of time. Requiring us to play in short periods of time, then restarting a new Campaign from a new date of time, with new upgrades already installed. We may be expecting the game to keep tract of time, when it really can't figure out which day it is!!

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

About the ST radar, or radar in general.

The ST radar "antenna head" is in the Night (Observation) Periscope. If you're not at Periscope Depth, or don't have the Night Periscope raised above the water line, you'll not have the SJ Surface Search station units work at all. Why would they........the radar antenna is below the water line, and/or still in the conning tower shears?? Raise the Night Periscope for ST Radar use. If the sea state is rough......meaning you're at 10 mph wind speed, you may have to raise your depth of the sub to compensate for waves breaking near, or over, the radar antenna. This is true with all radar usage. For SD and most SJ radar antennas use the "Radar Depth" key for calm sea states (zero to five mph winds), but plan to fudge the depth in higher winds resulting in rough sea conditions. With the ST periscope antenna, make sure its above the water line (whatever the wave action is) and have it extended out of its shears.

Secondly, we have no control over what "Gameplay Options" a player may have set up for his game. If you've set the option of "Realistic Sensors" to control Hydrophone/Sonar; Radar output, you'll get radar blips to appear, disappear, reappear, with every sweep of the radar signal. This is a stock game feature that's supposed to mimic a radar signal that comes and goes with the rocking of the boat.....even in calm, zero wind conditions. When you find yourself in a 10 mph wind speed (which is the third of four weather conditions/sea states), you'll really have a tough time getting the radar to be productive. This isn't something we can change. The game sets the degree of difficulty with the "options". We either use them or we don't.

This particular "option" isn't the only factor in having radar work as expected. Crew skill/experience also plays a part when relying on radar detection.

With the many variables available, you can't expect us to know what each players "option" settings he's using, or what other factors like weather conditions, or crew experience may play a part in why does a particular thing seem to work or not? The very fact players decide to add mods to Fotrs Ultimate, then complain about outcomes, and game behavior, is beyond our scope of explanation. How a player uses his game is his business, but when they don't know that adding mods together, or how to keep their game clean with "saved" information, may make a game unstable........it's beyond our control.

============

I do think there may be another reason for not seeing equipment applied as expected when using a Campaign game. It's my belief that the game has a flaw with keeping "dates" correctly when applying them over longer periods of time (which is exactly what is expected of a Campaign game that extends beyond one set of equipment's "existence" date into another). I think this may also come into play when you push a Campaign game from one year into the next.......the game actually loses tract of where it is, or know what new equipment is supposed to be applied to the sub when requested......so it doesn't!

For a long time I've seen the stock game having trouble with "dates"......it uses dates like September 31, April 31, or February 29......THEY DON"T EXIST! Yet, these dates are throughout the stock game! Or, having one piece of equipment "end" on the same date as a newer version "start" date......the game can't decide which to use if they are both "active" on the same date!!

With Fotrs Ultimate we've tried to eliminate these kinds of issues, but there may be more to this "date" problem than just fixing their obvious stock game errors........it may be the game engine can't keep a running account of where it is from one year to the next!!! I've not proposed this before, but it may very well be we can not rely on the game to keep tract of a Campaign game beyond a certain point of time. Requiring us to play in short periods of time, then restarting a new Campaign from a new date of time, with new upgrades already installed. We may be expecting the game to keep tract of time, when it really can't figure out which day it is!!

Captain, I sense the frustration in your response, but please consider this:
I am running an unmodded installation with the exception of FOTARS Ultimate v0.63. I did have 3 minor environmental-type mods implemented, but I removed them via JSGME in the interests of analyzing the radar issue I am experiencing. I did my Periscope radar test with my boat on the surface, the Night periscope at full height, and the SD Radar switch confirmed to be in the ON position. The sea state was calm and the ocean surface essentially flat. I believe my crew is sufficiently experienced and rated after 24 patrols to operate the radar effectively. The radar does not come on. There is no sweep. There is no blip for a known target. Both radar screens are dead and the scopes' on/off switches are not functional. The only time the periscope radar works as advertised is in the Single Mission version.

Apparently the only way I am going to convince you there is a problem in the mod is to wipe everything, do a clean install from a pristine copy of SH4, apply only the FOTARS Ultimate mod, and run a career until the Periscope Radar feature becomes available in January 1945. I can do that and I will, since there is nothing else in the offing. Be aware that the above process is exactly how I got to that date in my career. The only save games I loaded were taken from the Office. Nothing wild or unusual. The radar mod simply does not work in my career.

The 3 mods I added at various points have nothing to do with radar. Those include one that removes the surface mark for my sub when submerged, one that increased underwater visibility (clarifies the water), and one that eliminates the shouting crew after the boat takes a little damage. The periscope radar does not work, with or without those mods.

I am well aware of the how the radar is supposed to sweep, and can see all the happenings you describe with any other radar except the periscope mounted system. With the SJ-1 I see the sweep, the blips appear and fade depending on conditions and distance to the target, and the map contact updates correspond to the blips on the screen. My crew reports all radar contacts, surface and air.

Sorry to be a pest. If I'm the only one who experiences this issue then I'll shut up and live with the SJ-1 radar. It has a better range anyway. But if there is a discrepancy between the available upgrade and the version in the single mission shouldn't that be discoverable? It's beyond my skills to do that.

[propbeanie]

I'm going to try a few experiments on my two installs here torpedobait, and see what I come up with, with the discrepancies. I'm thinking its "dates", which CapnScurvy alludes to. I'll look at the dates of availability of the radar, and start a new campaign after that date, and see what it does, and I'll do the single missions a few more times. You haven't had the periscope radar fail in the SingleMission, especially after diving?

Like the Capn says, I think the game loses "count" somewhere along the way in the game, and the further you go in the game continuously, the worse it gets, and probably each "Save" game contributes to it...


Edit: I missed this -

Originally Posted by torpedobait

... Is there an element in the test single mission that I can implement to the existing SH4 FOTARSU install to make the career boat operate the same as the single mission boat? Both are Balao; both are post-January 1945. I just don't get it...

There is some difference apparently, but I have no idea where it lays. I've experienced similar with modding in keltos01's Climb Mount Niitaka, where a conning tower on the Kaidai3b would be in the campaign, yet would disappear in the SingleMissions. There are similarities with other aspects of the game, which makes a SingleMission as a "test" for the Campaign almost invalid. It can help, but is not the be-all, end-all of tests. The best way to test the campaign is to use the campaign, but setting that up can be a bother and a half... Which brings to mind, can you zip up your game Save folder (mydocuments / SH4, or whatever you're using) - just the save folder, and post it somewhere I can download it? I'm not sure if you can do attachments on PMs here...

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

The radar does not come on. There is no sweep. There is no blip for a known target. Both radar screens are dead and the scopes' on/off switches are not functional. The only time the periscope radar works as advertised is in the Single Mission version.

It's been my experience that when starting a "new" Campaign after January 1, 1945, the game provides the proper equipment.....an ST Radar is in working condition and equipped on any boat that's expected to have it (all but the S-Class). As you've reported, so does a single mission that is set up to have the sub updated to the correct late war date of play. This would indicate the issue isn't in the equipment setup, or the dates its expected to start, but with the Campaign game starting from a point before the equipment comes into being, then it loses tract of the dates after the equipment comes into effect......not providing it at all. Again, the issue would seem to be how the game "saves" itself......an issue we don't have access to.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I'm going to try a few experiments on my two installs here torpedobait, and see what I come up with, with the discrepancies. I'm thinking its "dates", which CapnScurvy alludes to. I'll look at the dates of availability of the radar, and start a new campaign after that date, and see what it does, and I'll do the single missions a few more times. You haven't had the periscope radar fail in the SingleMission, especially after diving?

Like the Capn says, I think the game loses "count" somewhere along the way in the game, and the further you go in the game continuously, the worse it gets, and probably each "Save" game contributes to it...

This whole issue has been with us since day one with the game. We've overlooked not getting proper equipment changes (Radar/Sonar updates, Deck Gun upgrades....changing from stern to bow positions etc.) because once we return to base (some time later), the game seems to "find" itself and the expected upgrades are in-play......all is "correct with the world", so we simply move on with the game.

As I've said, I think there's something stinking with how the game keeps saved games and keeps tract of time. This may be fixable by us, or it may require us to use a workaround to only play a Campaign for a short period of time. Realizing the game can't keep tract beyond a certain period of time before it loses itself.

[propbeanie]

I was wondering if maybe the game uses say 19380101 as "Day Zero" and counts numerically up from there, making December 8th, 1941 "Day 1436" (or whatever), and ~everything~ has to match (which it doesn't) in the game, else it goes off by a few days a year (February 29th, April 31st, etc), and then doesn't apply the "upgrades" because of missing "The Date" - even though "the calendar" says otherwise, and when you come back to port after that first patrol after the supposed upgrade date, all is well, because the missing days have passed. In other words, the in-game calendar might say it's January 1, 1945 (Day 2576) when the upgrade should be applied, but the game's "day count" shows it to actually be two weeks earlier (Day 2561), like say December 16, 1944, and hence the upgrade is not applied... ?? maybe? - until those two weeks have passed...

[KaleunMarco]

hey...
does anyone know if there is an Akikaze in FOTRS?
i was playing a MOD earlier this year and there was an Area 7 patrol objective and during the patrol an Akikaze came out of the strait to play and i was wondering if it could have been an earlier release of FOTRS.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by mark bonamer

hey...
does anyone know if there is an Akikaze in FOTRS?
i was playing a MOD earlier this year and there was an Area 7 patrol objective and during the patrol an Akikaze came out of the strait to play and i was wondering if it could have been an earlier release of FOTRS.

There is a Destroyer Escort Akikaze in Fotrs Ultimate. It's configured off of the Destroyer Minekaze model.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I was wondering if maybe the game uses say 19380101 as "Day Zero" and counts numerically up from there, making December 8th, 1941 "Day 1436" (or whatever), and ~everything~ has to match (which it doesn't) in the game, else it goes off by a few days a year (February 29th, April 31st, etc), and then doesn't apply the "upgrades" because of missing "The Date" - even though "the calendar" says otherwise, and when you come back to port after that first patrol after the supposed upgrade date, all is well, because the missing days have passed. In other words, the in-game calendar might say it's January 1, 1945 (Day 2576) when the upgrade should be applied, but the game's "day count" shows it to actually be two weeks earlier (Day 2561), like say December 16, 1944, and hence the upgrade is not applied... ?? maybe? - until those two weeks have passed...

That's an interesting concept. The game having a "Start" date from some point in time (like your suggestion of 19380101). The only trouble is.......what is the date?!? AND, what/where is the script that keeps this time tract?

For those of you who have been reading these later pages regarding why does the game falter on dates and upgrades? The trouble is, we don't have a "road map" to what the developers have done with game "saves" or how they keep track of time, to even suspect there's a way of fixing the issues encountered. As we know, the game works as expected with equipment upgrades if you start a Campaign game after the equipment has been allowed to "exist". Having the Campaign "cross" this existence date on its own.....many times you won't get the use of the equipment. Pretty simple findings, but the real problem is.....what to do about it (if anything can be done)??

I'm almost convinced we won't be able to fix anything since the game engine may be the real culprit. Either it doesn't allow enough memory to keep tract of the game to know what date its on, or there's a simple math equation that the game engine can't handle and POOF......it turns into a dumb box of rocks when it comes to keeping tract of equipment existence dates. Either way, we modders are not capable of "fixing" these kinds of issues. We're lucky to figure out "there's a problem" by just playing the game enough times....fixing it may be beyond our control.

I can tell you we've removed countless errors in equipment dates, mission dates, ship texture dates etc., in an attempt to have the game run smoothly......more than any other mod! However, if the fault is in the game engine itself when trying to keep tract of a Campaign game that spans long periods of time......we may have to consider shortening those Campaign periods to specific single years rather than think we can go from Dec 8 1941 to August 1945 in one Campaign game period.

[qi17840038]

Thank you 666

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by qi17840038

Thank you 666

qi17840038! after a three year silent run!

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I'm going to try a few experiments on my two installs here torpedobait, and see what I come up with, with the discrepancies. I'm thinking its "dates", which CapnScurvy alludes to. I'll look at the dates of availability of the radar, and start a new campaign after that date, and see what it does, and I'll do the single missions a few more times. You haven't had the periscope radar fail in the SingleMission, especially after diving?

Like the Capn says, I think the game loses "count" somewhere along the way in the game, and the further you go in the game continuously, the worse it gets, and probably each "Save" game contributes to it...


Edit: I missed this -

There is some difference apparently, but I have no idea where it lays. I've experienced similar with modding in keltos01's Climb Mount Niitaka, where a conning tower on the Kaidai3b would be in the campaign, yet would disappear in the SingleMissions. There are similarities with other aspects of the game, which makes a SingleMission as a "test" for the Campaign almost invalid. It can help, but is not the be-all, end-all of tests. The best way to test the campaign is to use the campaign, but setting that up can be a bother and a half... Which brings to mind, can you zip up your game Save folder (mydocuments / SH4, or whatever you're using) - just the save folder, and post it somewhere I can download it? I'm not sure if you can do attachments on PMs here...

I can send some Save files via email if that would work. Those files cover an entire career! I'm guessing that is more than you could use. Let me know if there is a particular time period/range and I'll zip those. I assume you mean "SaveGames" and not "RichSaveGames"? I think I still have your email address.

As for the time issues (if they exist) I tried to add the Periscope radar first when it became available to me in January 1945. I then tried adding in (I think) March 1945. Still won't come alive. The radars are just dead. What concerns me more than any time issue is that the new radar is present no matter when I add it, at least according to the buttons on the radar command bar, but they don't work.

I did not try to dive in the Single Mission.

EDITED: I just completed the Single Mission. After completing a dive to 200' and coming back up to periscope depth, I raised the Night scope. All radars worked just fine (It was fun killing the Yamato again - took only ten torpedos this time.

I also loaded a file from my career with an in-port Midway date of 06-12-1945. I upgraded to the ST Periscope Radar and started the mission. It had me start on 06-24-1945 with orders to proceed to the area off Bungo Suido. I immediately went to periscope depth, raised the Night scope, and made sure all the radars were activated. If you can see the attachment, nothing. No power, no sweep, nothing.

[propbeanie]

I'm not sure what I would "see" in a Save file, unless we had a template of what they are supposed to have in the save data, so all I would do is compare the files to one of mine. For now, I'll skip trying that, since I do value what's left of my sanity... In the meantime, what date did you start this career, and was your home port, did you transfer anywhere, has your boat changed, did you have other issues with "upgrades" prior to this? I'm going to try some career starts just before some of the "upgrades", and see what happens, but as has been mentioned, I don't think we'll find much useful info, since it's not consistent...

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I'm not sure what I would "see" in a Save file, unless we had a template of what they are supposed to have in the save data, so all I would do is compare the files to one of mine. For now, I'll skip trying that, since I do value what's left of my sanity... In the meantime, what date did you start this career, and was your home port, did you transfer anywhere, has your boat changed, did you have other issues with "upgrades" prior to this? I'm going to try some career starts just before some of the "upgrades", and see what happens, but as has been mentioned, I don't think we'll find much useful info, since it's not consistent...

I started my career on December 8, 1941 based at Midway. My first boat was a GAR class. On 10/31/1942 I was offered and accepted the Balao; we were assigned to Pearl as a home base. On 03/15/1942 I requested and was granted a transfer to Midway. We worked out of Midway for the rest of the war.

I've not had any problems with upgrades, at least as long as I stuck to a rear mounted deck gun, which I did throughout this latest career. Everything else has worked as advertised, including upgrades to the aft deck gun, the twin 40's fore and aft, and air and surface radars (at least until the failed ST Periscope radar upgrade.

One question raised by Captain Scurvy I forgot to answer concerned the realism settings for the Sensors. I have always used Realistic Sensors. The only gameplay options I do not use are Manual Targeting, Event Camera, and No External Camera. Everything else has a check mark on the Game Play Options screen. My realism setting comes out to 75%. And I try to put my most experienced crew on the sensors/radio, for obvious reasons.

I have emailed you my setup and SaveGame files from my SH4/data/cfg folder. I hope you can glean something valuable from those by comparing to ones that have a working ST Periscope Radar. Thanks for your time and trouble!