Terror strike on German christmas market in Magdeburg

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Thank you Jim

Made me sad when I read about these three person-Good they were arrested.

Markus

All part of the service my friend

[Shadowblade]

@Ostfriese:


"consume the most far-right media information"
- yeah, so mainstream media in my country are 'the most far-right media'? oh, cmon


"nazi party AfD"

- yeah, anti-immigration party = nazi party
This reminds me similar people here who were saying that everyone who is against immigration is nazi.



I am just watching the situation in Germany. This is not the first attack by car. Thanks to these people we have concrete roadblocks around cities to not receive similar multicultural enrichment by car/truck of peace like Germans.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The question is not for the title, but the qualification (or even the formal justification to call that title).

In Germany, different to psychologists and psychological psychotherapists, psychiatrists are medical doctors with a specialisation in neurology and/or psychoanalysis. Thats why you cannot get a doctor grade (PhD) in psychology over here, only in psychiatry (but then you do not study psychology, but medicine). In the German system, there is neither a "Dr. psych(ology)" nor a "Dr. psych(iatry)", only a "Dr. med". Medical students end their university time with a doctor grade, psychologists with a diploma (at my time) and today with either Master or Bachelor (thanks to the "Bologna" debacle). Today's Master is past time's diploma.

You don't need a title to work in that filed, you need a qualification. Which the perpetrator did have, not only from Saudi Arabia, but also an additional one from Germany. And you certainly don't need to tell me about the German system of academic titles, I've had more than enough of that mularkey in my time (I majored in chemistry but never went beyond the Diplom, so I'm not a Dr. rer. nat - never saw the need for that, and life proved me right).

If you are willing to read a bit more about the perpetrator, something more neutral:

https://steadyhq.com/de/u-m/posts/58...6-98a08e60fc17
(in German, sorry, guys, it's too long to translate everything for you here)

The conclusion of this article sums it up perfectly (translated by myself):
"Right wing populist willl have to acknowledge that the man wasn't just a "Fachkraft" (derogatory for foreign immigrant), but in deed a well educated specialistand fluent in three languages.
Leftist must content tehmselves with the fact that the primary motivation of the perpetrator was not the AfD.
Ex-muslims will have to acknowledge that even one of them can go mad and massively damage their Idea by such a deed.

Politicans, who repeat their call for more security ad infinitum will have drop that simple argument because there simply cannot be a broad protection against something like this.
Antisemitist will have to acknowledge that it's not the Jews who are behind this.
The Germans will have to acknowledge that they have frightingly little knowledge about psychology."

[Skybird]

Former colleagues and nurses seem to disagree with your assessment. FOCUS hardly can be labelled a rightwing newspaper.



The quesiton to me is whether he was a lousy doctor with a bad temper holding a title legally, or was just an imposter. Thats what is not fully clear to me after the several reports on these details of the story. Anyway, it does nto sound like he was the sound and expert "Fachkraft" that you referred to. He seems to have ticked out toeards colleague sand nurses frequently, and telling inm,ates they shpoud, fapvur alcohol over honey and his colleagues claliugn him Dr. Google does not sound like a valid reason to assume hge was qulfied for what he was doing. You can hold a legally sound title or grade - and on the human or competence level be a desaster nevertehless.


It's possible we're talking at cross purposes and mean the same thing, I'm not sure I understood correctly what you were trying to say. But never mind. Could be lost in translation.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Former colleagues and nurses seem to disagree with your assessment. FOCUS hardly can be labelled a rightwing newspaper.

Focus is nowhere near neutral.

The quesiton to me is whether he was a lousy doctor with a bad temper holding a title legally, or was just an imposter.

The answer to that is clear. He did not hold the title of "doctor" and has never claimed to do so. Yet he still was a trained specialist (which you can be without a title).
He might have been bad at his job, but so are many others.

It's possible we're talking at cross purposes and mean the same thing, I'm not sure I understood correctly what you were trying to say. But never mind. Could be lost in translation.

I'll try in German then:


Er hatte keinen klassischen Doktortitel - und hat das auch nie behauptet. Er ist aber sehr wohl als Facharzt ausgebildet, und das sowohl mit einem Abschluss in Saudi-Arabien als auch mit einer Qualifikation, die er in Deutschland gemacht hat. Er ist natürlich sienem Umfeld damit aufgefallen, dass er immer abgedrehter wurde. Aber er ist halt nicht einfach einer Agenda gefolgt, sondern hat alles mögliche an wirren Ideen aufgenommen und weiter verdreht. Er ist kein muslimischer Terror-Schläfer, wie gewisse Rechte es gerne hätten. Er ist kein rechter AfD-Sympathisant, wie gewisse Linke es gerne hätten.


Alle Zeichen sprechen dafür, dass er viel eher in die Kategorie "Amokläufer" fällt als in die Kategorie "politisch oder religiös motivierter Mörder".

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

Focus is nowhere near neutral.

Which newspaper is. But it is certainly not right-winging. Except oneself stands so far on the left side that necessarily everything else appears to be "right".

The answer to that is clear. He did not hold the title of "doctor" and has never claimed to do so. Yet he still was a trained specialist (which you can be without a title).
He might have been bad at his job, but so are many others.

The fault appears to be on my side, having mistaken the "Dr. med" with "Approbation", and the media messing it up further by saying "Doktor" in the meaning of "Arzt", not necessarily "Dr. med". Fact is "Facharzt für Psychatrie" you can only get by studying medicine first, not by studying psychology, and the job declaration "Facharzt für Psychatrie" and "Facharzt für ärztliche Psychotherapie" is protected by the law like the term "Diplom-Psychologe" and "psychologischer Psychotherapeut" is.



Most medical doctors in Germany still added the scientific work to gain the "Dr. med", too. 60-65% says Google.

[mapuc]

Sad to say, for me it is irrelevant what kind of education he had and what party he supported or not-For me he committed a terrible crime a terror attack on innocent people and for this he shall have Germany's strongest punishment.

It sounds like in my ear, that many of the Germans is fishing for some excuses for what he did.

And last a sentence I have been written before in our German thread.

You can't accuse every member or supporters of AfD. for being nazis or sympathize with the nazis.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Sad to say, for me it is irrelevant what kind of education he had and what party he supported or not-For me he committed a terrible crime a terror attack on innocent people and for this he shall have Germany's strongest punishment.

Precisely

[Skybird]

The Magdeburg Assassin as a Doctor

The author Prof. Dr. med. Dipl.-Psych. Wolfgang Meins is a neuropsychologist, doctor of psychiatry and neurology, geriatrician and adjunct professor of psychiatry. In recent years he has worked primarily as a court expert in the civil law area.

To be honest, I find it difficult - after everything that has happened in recent years - to write anything more about migrant crime. It is simply too bleak and the prospects for a radical and, above all, rapid improvement are too bleak in view of the parties that are setting the tone here and their representatives. So be it.

When I read tweets from the attacker from the last two or three years late on the evening of the Magdeburg terror attack, my first thought was: We are dealing with a delusional patient. After some research two days later, I found that the most likely variant was a delusional personality disorder that the perpetrator had been suffering from for some time but had become more pronounced in recent years, but possibly also a delusional disorder that has emerged in recent years or perhaps even schizophrenia, which cannot be completely ruled out at present.

My second thought was, of course, how unbelievable it is that an asylum seeker - among other misdeeds - could openly threaten a German medical association with a serious attack in 2013 without being immediately taken into deportation custody, only to leave the country soon after, never to return. Even if, when you look at it soberly, that doesn't really surprise me.

The next thought was whether we are actually dealing with a qualified medical doctor here, or with someone who has benefited from the lax German controls on migrants or asylum seekers compared to other countries, who simply claim to be a doctor and can perhaps even present something like a university degree certificate.

Such considerations were encouraged by the statements now available from employees at his last place of work, a forensic psychiatric facility where he was nicknamed Dr. Google. However, it is not a forensic clinic for people like him, but specifically for criminals with addiction problems who are serving their prison sentences there.

Within the status hierarchy of medical professions, he may not be at the bottom of the pile, but he is not far from it either. According to statements from employees, it did not seem as though we were actually dealing with a doctor or even a specialist. But in this case, appearances are clearly deceptive. Which leads to the question of how many eyes were turned and how often before he finally became a specialist in psychiatry.

What is particularly irritating is, of course, that here, under the watchful eyes of his colleagues, someone was mentally distancing himself more and more from the real world over a long period of time - clearly visible in his increasingly crazy tweets - which he posted in considerable numbers to an equally considerable number of followers. But, as I try to explain, the attacker may have benefited from his ennobling migrant status on the one hand, and from the tight job market for doctors on the other. A forensic addiction clinic located deep in the central German provinces is certainly happy about any doctor who is willing to work here - and they are happy to let things slide.

The assassin clearly had other ideas about his medical career in Germany. This becomes clear when you enter his name - Taleb Al Abdulmohsen - into Google Scholar , the search engine for scientific literature. Surprisingly, you get three hits, namely scientific publications between 2010 and 2013. The author's addresses are given as the psychiatric departments of university hospitals - in chronological order: Bochum, Hanover and most recently Stralsund, where the assassin evidently completed most of his psychiatric training.

The publications are not original research, but two articles in the journal Medical Hypothesis which , as the name suggests, deal with certain hypothetical considerations which still need to be substantiated by corresponding studies. The third publication, from 2013, is a detailed letter published by the American Medical Journal and which may already hint at paranoid ideas: He directly and blatantly accuses the head of a psychiatric department at the MHH of "stealing" his idea of ​​a study on the treatment of anxiety patients with Botox. The head of the department turned him down at the time. A year later, however, two of his colleagues published exactly such a study.

Against this backdrop of the failure of his career aspirations, which clearly continued at the Stralsund University Hospital, it becomes more understandable that from around 2015 onwards he became increasingly interested in non-medical problems. This primarily refers to his very specific fight against Islam, which ultimately resulted in a mass murder of non-Muslims. However, this was only made possible by an ideologically fixed, experience-resistant migration policy - supplemented by a security concept for the Magdeburg Christmas market that does not deserve the name. LINK


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Another expert for Zufahrtssicherheit (=access security, yes there is such an branch, and it even has DIN normations for security measures at access areas to public events), was on TV yesterday, and he totally and compeletly picked apart the authorities for the way they left wide open the access area and had no measures at all in place. He chuckled at the auhtorites and did not even try to hide his ridicule for their flawed thinking. He said this was utmost failure at decision making level and an ignoration of even most basic security considerations. All bollards and obstacles are simply useless if you leave just one vulnerable opening unsealed. Its like with a chain - the weakest ring decides the stability of it all. Ha also said that many concrete bollards provde a false sense of securit yonly, since they are not fixe din place - a racing truck simply would crash into them and turn them into projectiles flying in to the crowd , with the imaginabble consequences. Such concrete cubes and concrete obstacles are popular over here in germany since they are cheap. Well - you get what you pay for. Better are retractable steel bollards that can be lowered and raised again as needed. It would also spoil the cityscape less in many places, where these things stand around all year round and exude the charm of a castle under siege.

[Dargo]

According to Thuringia's Office for the Protection of the Constitution, the motives of the Magdeburg perpetrator have yet to be clarified. However, a "growing radicalization with references to extremism" has been observed.

Originally Posted by Stephan Kramer, President of the Thuringian Office for the Protection of the Constitution

Even if a mental disorder were to be discovered, the alleged perpetrator's online posts show an increased radicalization with references to right-wing extremism in recent years.

https://www-zdf-de.translate.goog/na...x_tr_hist=true

[Skybird]

[FR] Following the deadly rampage at the Magdeburg Christmas market, the Kriminalistische Institut Jena e.V. (Jena Institute of Criminology) has made serious accusations against the city council and the police. Both authorities are said to have contributed to the tragedy through failures in the security concept.

As the Institute's director, Dieter Siegel, confirmed, a complaint was filed with the public prosecutor's office in Naumburg (Saxony-Anhalt) on Monday. The accusation: aiding and abetting murder in five cases and aiding and abetting bodily harm in at least 200 cases.

Siegel explained with regard to the attack in Magdeburg: “The rampage would have been prevented by barriers, whether movable fences, parked vehicles or barriers.” He described this behavior to the Volksstimme newspaper, which first reported on the case, as “aiding and abetting a crime by omission”.

Despite the accusations and the dramatic consequences, Ronni Krug, Magdeburg's councillor for public order, explained at the press conference: “The security concept was good. However, rescue and escape routes also had to be kept clear.”

Following the deadly rampage at the Magdeburg Christmas market, lawyer Dr. Adam Ahmed is calling for rigorous investigations into those responsible. “The public prosecutor's office must therefore immediately initiate additional investigations into negligent homicide and negligent bodily injury. Those responsible in the police force will have to accept criminal responsibility. Above all, however, with regard to the gap in the security system at the cordon. The main person responsible is probably the head of operations,” explained the lawyer.

The gap to which the lawyer refers was located at a five-meter-wide access road through which the driver, Taleb A., was able to enter the Christmas market unhindered in his car. He killed five people and injured around 200, some of them seriously.

According to information from BILD, this gap should actually have been closed by a mobile police barrier. Next to the mulled wine pyramid, a transverse police van was planned to prevent attacks with vehicles. However, this van was apparently missing or in the wrong place.

[Skybird]

https://www-achgut-com.translate.goo..._x_tr_pto=wapp


Quite illustrative.