My recent experience of the UK National Health Service (long post)

I guess the privatization side of the health care debate does rely on stuff like Jesus and miracles.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

As a Christian, I can say that it is not Christian to support a system that subjects the life and property of "free" people to the claws of government. Nor is it Christian to create and grow dependancy on such a system. Thusly, government control at the expense of individual freedom is not Christian at all.

It is Christian for individuals to pursue a system that upholds the liberty of people, protects their life and property, and thus can use their own resources to help people under their own free will. America acts as a Christian nation when free individuals are free to help those around them, without empowering government to be the arbiter of who has what at the voting boot. Voting away other people's property or freedom for redistributive purposes is utterly antithetical to Christian values.

Especially as we've seen the poor results of government acting as a charity. Often times it being destructive to many people. I just can't see any Christian helping others through an all powrful government at the expense of freedom, economic liberty, and property rights. I'm of the opinion trying to use government iin this way actually kills the true spirit of giving, as it is actually people being generous with other people's resources.

Good reply. I've waffled and wobbled back and forth in my own feelings on what needs to be done and how. My comments were based mainly on my observation of the vast (and vocal) group of self-proclaimed 'believers' who seem to place their country on an equal or even higher level than their God. You (and Iceman, and a few others here) strike me as being much more thoughtful and reasoning than that other group.

As a medic I know that when a 125 kg (250 lb) guy is wounded in some forsaken forest, Jesus is never around when it comes to actually carrying his ass out of there.

[MothBalls]

I agree with you CaptainHaplo. I don't think responsible people should foot the bill for the irresponsible. As a small business owner I pay more than my fair share of taxes and insurance already.

Right now they are targeting me to pay more to cover people too lazy to work. My unemployment insurance premiums are about to go up AGAIN because they want to extend unemployment payments again. Many of these deadbeats don't look for work because they are getting paid not to. You want to cure unemployment? Quit paying people to not work.

The same thing is going to happen with health care. I'm going to end up footing the bill for those who refuse to buy coverage (just like I do now via higher premiums and taxes). That is 100% wrong. I have zero sympathy for those who aren't responsible enough to maintain their own insurance.

I do think we need health care reforms and some stricter regulations on the insurance industry. Tort reform would be a good place to start. As for the public option, it should be 100% self sufficient. We all know that's a fantasy that will never happen, and dollars to donuts, I'll be the one getting the bill.

[AVGWarhawk]

Looking at this..I think we will be paying no matter what options are available. There will always be the free loader.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by MothBalls

Tort reform would be a good place to start.

Tort reform has already happened in TX and CA and has done little to nothing to stem the rising costs of health care.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

In terms of Christianity, it was never the intention of Christ to make people dependant on the vices of any government. And as you said, he wasn't here to assume the throne and cure all injustices. Christ was concerned for the soul of mankind. And man's free choice to serve his fellow man. The soul cannot do this by force of any government. Christ is greater than the state. Therefore, empowering government at the expense of personal liberty simply corrupts this vision IMO. "Assisting" others with other people's stuff at the voting booth is not generosity. In the end, I don't begrudge the TRULY poor from seeking assistance. Yet, there has to be an end to the ambitions of the so called "do-gooders". The deficit generating (bloated/government run) healthcare ambition in this country breaks the limit. And if there are no limits, than we have no freedom at all. Nor do we have individual liberty or freedom of choice. This is called tyranny from where I come from.

Here's my 0.02$:
First of all, I think that religion should be kept out of politics, and that people who drag it into politics (sorry for my wording, I'm really not getting at you) must stomach the fact that not everyone shares their interpretation. In any case, being a staunch agnostic myself, I can only conjecture what the viewpoint is that you were critically referring to in your post.

In general, I think that the Christian religion is, as a whole, much too fundamental (and basically not actually concered with matters of 'this' world) to allow for any ready made answers in political issues such as these. Also, I am firmly convinced that there is no simple interpretation of Christianity. Of course, faith is always a personal choice. But living within a society, or at least a community, is part of the human condition. I can see why some people can argue that general healthcare can in fact be some a form of Charity (in the Christian theological sense). I just think that that while a persons's faith is an individual choice, Christianity can very well have a social dimension.

Hope that didn't sound offensive - as I've said, it's only a hypothesis.

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Despite the serious overall state the UK NHS finds itself in, it is still admired/envied in many parts of the world.

That's what my local MP (Foreign Secretary) keeps telling me

Although I agree with you I pity you your (not maybe yours) choice of MP.

Milliband is a ****.

As for professional freeloaders, well the freeloader is a risk you take with national health care and benefit systems, however I think you will find they make up a small number of claimants.

I also have to disagree with statements about why you shouldn't have to pay for people who make no contribution.

What about someone who was in gainful employment (the majority of the population) who due to the recent crisis has lost their job. So for the time they are out of work they don't make contributions. If they are like most people they will be looking for work and eventually find work, thus they start making contributions again.

You see that is why we pay taxes and National Insurance over here in hte UK. I know that I have paid my way so if things go to rat**** I have contributed along with the majority of people to the safety net that is there if I should need it. Therefore I do not begrudge paying my taxes. True they need to crack down on freeloaders and in the UK they are starting to.

I do agree however you can make money out of being sick, but there are ways to crackdown. They are starting that here, and yes it is unpopular, but only amongst those who know they will be busted.

However on balance I am glad we have an NHS. BTW I don't see what being a Christian really has to do with it all.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Tort reform has already happened in TX and CA and has done little to nothing to stem the rising costs of health care.

Tort reform is only one part of the larger picture of problems. Even if it has done very little it still has done something. A bunch of 'little something' add up to a lot of somethings.

[AVGWarhawk]

As for professional freeloaders, well the freeloader is a risk you take with national health care and benefit systems, however I think you will find they make up a small number of claimants.

Still a number we have to pay for. Unfortunate that will be status quo.

I also have to disagree with statements about why you shouldn't have to pay for people who make no contribution.

What about someone who was in gainful employment (the majority of the population) who due to the recent crisis has lost their job. So for the time they are out of work they don't make contributions. If they are like most people they will be looking for work and eventually find work, thus they start making contributions again.

If you paid in and loose a job should not automatically make you loose coverage. Even here in the states you can get Cobra Insurance if you loose your job. You are not left in the cold.

You see that is why we pay taxes and National Insurance over here in hte UK. I know that I have paid my way so if things go to rat**** I have contributed along with the majority of people to the safety net that is there if I should need it. Therefore I do not begrudge paying my taxes. True they need to crack down on freeloaders and in the UK they are starting to.

Safety net here is Cobra Insurance. Also your savings. It is recommended you save at least 3 months of salary in case something happens. That seems smart to me. I lost my job and was jobless for 3 months. I lived on my savings. I did not apply for unemployment that I was entitled to. Just they way I am.

I do agree however you can make money out of being sick, but there are ways to crackdown. They are starting that here, and yes it is unpopular, but only amongst those who know they will be busted.

People work the system for financial gain. Happens all the time. It is called fraud. Need more following up on claims that are false.

However on balance I am glad we have an NHS. BTW I don't see what being a Christian really has to do with it all.

I do not see this as a Christian dealing at all. Not sure how that got in the mix.

[MothBalls]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

What about someone who was in gainful employment (the majority of the population) who due to the recent crisis has lost their job. So for the time they are out of work they don't make contributions. If they are like most people they will be looking for work and eventually find work, thus they start making contributions again.

(not directed at you specifically, mainly Americans in general)
It's called being a responsible adult. Before buying a luxury car, iPhone, new computer and racking up 25,000 in credit card debt, people should have savings/investments/portfolios to back themselves up for an extended period of time. Too many lay blame on "circumstances beyond their control". Bullchit. The only thing beyond their control is their own spending habits.

Too many in the US live from check-to-check and can't even go a few weeks without a paycheck. Those are the people I have no sympathy for. I don't feel obligated to provide support for stupid people. Rainy days happen to all of us at one time or another. Not my fault if someone isn't ready for one. The ones who collect unemployment for 36-53 weeks, now will also collect heath care as well, on my dime.

[AVGWarhawk]

Too many lay blame on "circumstances beyond their control". Bullchit. The only thing beyond their control is their own spending habits.

That is an understatement if I ever heard one. There are many who blame it all on someone else. Most just need to look in the mirror to find the offender.

I don't think I've ever met an American who has lived in both US and Finland who would prefer the US health care. Or US anything. Well, weather maybe. The one in Florida, not Buffalo.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I don't think I've ever met an American who has lived in both US and Finland who would prefer the US health care. Or US anything. Well, weather maybe. The one in Florida, not Buffalo.

Florida weather sucks.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I don't think I've ever met an American who has lived in both US and Finland who would prefer the US health care. Or US anything. Well, weather maybe. The one in Florida, not Buffalo.

Is the grub (steaks and submarines) really that good in Finland!!