America = doomed (merged many times) - Page 3

Skybird · 11-21-08, 09:44 AM

Yes, TDK, jealous we are, and so thankful that we need to pay for your way of life and your superior model. Paying for it on and on and on, it makes us happy.

Try to run your model we envy you for without cheating by using other people's money, use exclsuively your own - then you may have a claim to make about how great your model work. Until then, I would prefer to brag a bit lesser about how fantastic we are, if I were you. your nation is not an example for the rest of the globe anymore, as it has been until decades ago - it is the globe'S greatest problem today. And still you think you are the greatest?

Or in other words: give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets. In germany we have reduced spendings over the past years and expected to have the first balanced state budget without new debts next year - thanks to the crisis made in the US, we can forget that and will increase our new debts again now - years of fiscal policy of ours lost and ruined. We are so jeaulous for you, yes we are! Do all that, get rid of your debts and compensate us for the dmaages you have done to us, and then you have an argument indeed to claim your model has unused ressources and can be successful and revive itself like phoenix rises from the ashes, and that it can run by itself and without help from the outside. Right now it has proven to cause a mess, if being allowed running for just long enough, it is a patient on the intensive-care-station. And all we non-american nations and economies need to clean the mess that you have made by refusing to stop while there still was time, and we need to suffer massive losses - for your model failing. You are the greatest debtor in the world - that successful your model works.

And I do not even touch the issue of widening social gaps inside your country, and the accumulation of more and more wealth at a smaller and smaller top of the social hierarchy while more and more people become poorer and poorer.

AntEater is right, things won't be too great in the EU, too, for different reasons - what America has too little, the EU has too much: regulations. Both does damage, but there can be no doiuzbt that the current crisis that I more and more understand to be just unfolding in it'S starting sequence has been caused by and in America. and where foriegn bansk and economies suffer losses as well, it is becaseu they allowed to be infested with the virus that had taken over the american finance system. That is not a recommendation for that finance system - but the exact opposite.

AntEater · 11-21-08, 09:55 AM

If you look at past estimates, you will see a mixed bag
AFAIK the NIC failed to predict the collapse of the USSR.
On the other hand, while it did not predict 911 per se, it warned for years about major terrorist attacks on US soil.
It seems to me that while NIC is good on hard power politics, military, migration and industry, the US intelligence community knows little about the intricacies of the world financial markets.
This is not surprising as most intelligence services recruit themselves from the military or other security institutions.
Apart from that, as I posted in the "black swan theory" thread, the NIC apparently is quite good at recognizing trends.
And IMHO they're pretty much stating the obvious, and not giving a worst case scenario of that either, but rather an optimistic middle ground assessment.
With regards to america being more adaptable and such, intelligence agencies cannot count on metaphysics.
This sounds a bit like the WW2 japanese trusting that their japanese martial spirit might overcome any technological advantage of their enemies.

I mean if the US can integrate these non-traditional US citizens, it won't be because of some kind of special spirit, but because the economy can provide them with the same standard of living as the others.
With that I don't mean a welfare state, but well-paid jobs.
I'm not a US citizen, but to me it seems the great integrating factor in the past has not been some kind of economic kumbayah of a common spirit, but rather the fact that everybody who tried earned enough not only to keep living but to actually improve.

SteamWake · 11-21-08, 10:01 AM

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

Digital_Trucker · 11-21-08, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

At least it's not Der Spiegel this time

AntEater · 11-21-08, 10:21 AM

Ideology aside, I'm not so sure wether trust in the producers and consumers that much today.
If we had Henry Ford speaking to Congress, I'd agree, but we don't.
In many ways, today's CEOs are simply overpaid clerks.
They're basically interested in their salaries and their boni, if then corporate interest comes second, you have a good executive. If he thinks of the cooperation at all, you have an average one.
They're not corporal WW2 generals, but corporate 16th century condottiere (warlords).
On the other hand, leaving a multibillion dollar enterprise in the hands of one or serveral personal owners is not the solution either, a modern multinational corp. simply can't work this way.
With regards to the consumers, we can't trust them either.
First of all, a whole industry, the biggest industry in the US is PAID to cloud his judgement. Second, today's markets are so complicated that even without that much advertising, keeping abreast of the flood of information would be a full time job.

With regards to the auto industry, the logical thing would be "let 'em fail".
With state support, the state actually rewards the very same people who caused this mess and has zero guarantee that they won't screw up again.
A full scale nationalization would be an alternative, but I think not really feasible in the US.
Problem is, if you let the whole auto industry of america go down the drain, there's no one to step up in their place.
Without state support, not even foreign manufacturers would suddenly start to invest big scale in US production.
Auto industry in the US would just stop. From a libertarian standpoint, this is acceptable, the US big three screwed up and deserved it.
But from a national point of view, losing the most important part of your manufacturing industry is not acceptable.

joegrundman · 11-21-08, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

His source is the NIC report from the USA
It just is linked via the guardian

But I'm sure you knew that, having checked what it is before you posted, and didn't just take the first opportunity to prove yourself a nob-end. I am reassured that you do in fact genuinely find the NIC report an amusing source.

I'm guessing steamwake thinks the only fair and balanced resource is little green footballs.

Skybird · 11-21-08, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

I have no agenda, I am simply angry, and with all right we non-Americans can have, since we pay the bills.

And what is wrong with my - as you put it - "sources"? I repeatedly have said, at least three time this year alone, that there is only one reason why I quote Der Spiegel often and almost never any other german news outlet: Der Spiegel is the only German paper with a dedicated and huge international internet edition that translates the german edition's content into English. Most other papers, and almost all of the major ones never had or have no more an English edition.

Learn German, and I give you material from two dozen different German "sources" regularly in this forum - just in case you suddenly discover your love and interest for german inner politics, and start to care for it!

Skybird · 11-21-08, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

His source is the NIC report from the USA
It just is linked via the guardian

Indeed. I could as well have used any other of the various German and British papers that I skimmed and where the news of this report is being covered on page 1. Most newspapers had a headline on it yesterday or today.

SteamWake · 11-21-08, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

His source is the NIC report from the USA
It just is linked via the guardian

But I'm sure you knew that, having checked what it is before you posted, and didn't just take the first opportunity to prove yourself a nob-end. I am reassured that you do in fact genuinely find the NIC report an amusing source.

I'm guessing steamwake thinks the only fair and balanced resource is little green footballs.

LOL he called me a nob-end... :p

The first link 'his source' is to an article in the Guardian itself which picked and choose excerpts from the 120 page report. Not that the Guardian has any agenda

If they could have got away without crediting the source of the material they would have.

Im sure you took the time to read all 120 pages of the actual report. My favorite part was page two.

Nob end.... LOL :rotfl: that so cute.

Here is another perspectave on the same article http://www.reuters.com/article/usDol...41155720081120

By the way no I dont put a whole lot of faith in the NIC

Morts · 11-21-08, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?

kinda like you and some other people to with the democrats

joegrundman · 11-21-08, 10:37 AM

glad you like it

August · 11-21-08, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morts

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?

kinda like you and some other people to with the democrats

The difference? The Dems are my countrymen. I don't make a habit of posting dirt on foreign countries.

August · 11-21-08, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Or in other words: give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets.

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.

subchaser12 · 11-21-08, 11:29 AM

I think this assesment is correct, but I think blaming race is just the blame game. Bush and Cheny Inc. are white as can be and they have been the most incompetent rulers of this country we have ever seen. So I am not automatically going to say if someome is white they are right, and black, well you know the rest. Obama could go sleep on his desk for the next four years and be less of a screw up than his white predecessor Cheney and Bush.

Whites not being the majority in a few decades is old news, but I see Obama's win is drudging it up to further inflame the small minority of white people in this country who see it as the end of times. White people stoped having 8 kids decades ago. They got selfish, so they won't dominate. In south Florida you can't even get a job as a white person if you don't speak Spanish.

If you want to be the majority start having 8+ kids again. As it stands white people have two kids that don't return their calls after going off to college to be liberals.

Schroeder · 11-21-08, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.

I know we´re getting OT but:
Could you please tell me how we started WWI all alone?

11-21-08, 09:44 AM	#31
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,604 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Yes, TDK, jealous we are, and so thankful that we need to pay for your way of life and your superior model. Paying for it on and on and on, it makes us happy. Try to run your model we envy you for without cheating by using other people's money, use exclsuively your own - then you may have a claim to make about how great your model work. Until then, I would prefer to brag a bit lesser about how fantastic we are, if I were you. your nation is not an example for the rest of the globe anymore, as it has been until decades ago - it is the globe'S greatest problem today. And still you think you are the greatest? Or in other words: give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets. In germany we have reduced spendings over the past years and expected to have the first balanced state budget without new debts next year - thanks to the crisis made in the US, we can forget that and will increase our new debts again now - years of fiscal policy of ours lost and ruined. We are so jeaulous for you, yes we are! Do all that, get rid of your debts and compensate us for the dmaages you have done to us, and then you have an argument indeed to claim your model has unused ressources and can be successful and revive itself like phoenix rises from the ashes, and that it can run by itself and without help from the outside. Right now it has proven to cause a mess, if being allowed running for just long enough, it is a patient on the intensive-care-station. And all we non-american nations and economies need to clean the mess that you have made by refusing to stop while there still was time, and we need to suffer massive losses - for your model failing. You are the greatest debtor in the world - that successful your model works. And I do not even touch the issue of widening social gaps inside your country, and the accumulation of more and more wealth at a smaller and smaller top of the social hierarchy while more and more people become poorer and poorer. AntEater is right, things won't be too great in the EU, too, for different reasons - what America has too little, the EU has too much: regulations. Both does damage, but there can be no doiuzbt that the current crisis that I more and more understand to be just unfolding in it'S starting sequence has been caused by and in America. and where foriegn bansk and economies suffer losses as well, it is becaseu they allowed to be infested with the virus that had taken over the american finance system. That is not a recommendation for that finance system - but the exact opposite. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 11-21-08 at 10:23 AM.

11-21-08, 09:55 AM	#32
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If you look at past estimates, you will see a mixed bag AFAIK the NIC failed to predict the collapse of the USSR. On the other hand, while it did not predict 911 per se, it warned for years about major terrorist attacks on US soil. It seems to me that while NIC is good on hard power politics, military, migration and industry, the US intelligence community knows little about the intricacies of the world financial markets. This is not surprising as most intelligence services recruit themselves from the military or other security institutions. Apart from that, as I posted in the "black swan theory" thread, the NIC apparently is quite good at recognizing trends. And IMHO they're pretty much stating the obvious, and not giving a worst case scenario of that either, but rather an optimistic middle ground assessment. With regards to america being more adaptable and such, intelligence agencies cannot count on metaphysics. This sounds a bit like the WW2 japanese trusting that their japanese martial spirit might overcome any technological advantage of their enemies. I mean if the US can integrate these non-traditional US citizens, it won't be because of some kind of special spirit, but because the economy can provide them with the same standard of living as the others. With that I don't mean a welfare state, but well-paid jobs. I'm not a US citizen, but to me it seems the great integrating factor in the past has not been some kind of economic kumbayah of a common spirit, but rather the fact that everybody who tried earned enough not only to keep living but to actually improve. __________________ Last edited by AntEater; 11-21-08 at 10:02 AM.

11-21-08, 10:21 AM	#35
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ideology aside, I'm not so sure wether trust in the producers and consumers that much today. If we had Henry Ford speaking to Congress, I'd agree, but we don't. In many ways, today's CEOs are simply overpaid clerks. They're basically interested in their salaries and their boni, if then corporate interest comes second, you have a good executive. If he thinks of the cooperation at all, you have an average one. They're not corporal WW2 generals, but corporate 16th century condottiere (warlords). On the other hand, leaving a multibillion dollar enterprise in the hands of one or serveral personal owners is not the solution either, a modern multinational corp. simply can't work this way. With regards to the consumers, we can't trust them either. First of all, a whole industry, the biggest industry in the US is PAID to cloud his judgement. Second, today's markets are so complicated that even without that much advertising, keeping abreast of the flood of information would be a full time job. With regards to the auto industry, the logical thing would be "let 'em fail". With state support, the state actually rewards the very same people who caused this mess and has zero guarantee that they won't screw up again. A full scale nationalization would be an alternative, but I think not really feasible in the US. Problem is, if you let the whole auto industry of america go down the drain, there's no one to step up in their place. Without state support, not even foreign manufacturers would suddenly start to invest big scale in US production. Auto industry in the US would just stop. From a libertarian standpoint, this is acceptable, the US big three screwed up and deserved it. But from a national point of view, losing the most important part of your manufacturing industry is not acceptable. __________________

11-21-08, 10:37 AM	#41
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	glad you like it __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

11-21-08, 11:29 AM	#44
subchaser12 Sonar Guy Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Spam, duplicate accounts, provoking moderators. Posts: 377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think this assesment is correct, but I think blaming race is just the blame game. Bush and Cheny Inc. are white as can be and they have been the most incompetent rulers of this country we have ever seen. So I am not automatically going to say if someome is white they are right, and black, well you know the rest. Obama could go sleep on his desk for the next four years and be less of a screw up than his white predecessor Cheney and Bush. Whites not being the majority in a few decades is old news, but I see Obama's win is drudging it up to further inflame the small minority of white people in this country who see it as the end of times. White people stoped having 8 kids decades ago. They got selfish, so they won't dominate. In south Florida you can't even get a job as a white person if you don't speak Spanish. If you want to be the majority start having 8+ kids again. As it stands white people have two kids that don't return their calls after going off to college to be liberals. Last edited by subchaser12; 11-21-08 at 11:31 AM.

11-21-08, 10:01 AM	#33
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked Im always amused at his 'sources' though.