EX-Prez Carter to meet with Hamas...

[SUBMAN1]

Not even close. Who exactly elected Carter in this great democracy to go over there and create worse issues for our country by talking with known terrorists? These are the same people that dance in the street when US citizens are blown up! ANd now you want to give them credibility? Real nice. Get a grip on reality for once. Nothing good can come out of this, and Carter is going there acting on his own behalf, yet he brings it like he is representing our country and they will see it like he is representing our country? Are you nuts? This is the craziest idea ever!

-S

[Tchocky]

There can be no peace between Israel and Palestine without Hamas, seeing as how they represent the majority of Palestinians. The current US/Syrian/Israeli attitude of isolation will do nothing but harden attitudes.
Trying not to go over what Platapus said, the propaganda spin that Hamas put on this isn't going to be a fair reference of what actually takes place. Find me a government or political party that doesn't do this.
They are a terrorist group, yes. But they are also the legitimately electedd governement of the Palestinian people, which itself demands a response other than ignorance.
Saying that this visit by Carter is what confers legitimacy on Hamas is silly, and insulting to those who elected them.

[DeepIron]

@tchocky...

An interesting quote from U.S. Policy World: http://www.uspw.org/index.php?title=Israel/Palestine

In April 2004 Bush accepted Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's unilateral plan to permanently absorb the huge West Bank settlement blocs and their 220,000 settlers into Israel. For the first time, the United States explicitly and officially rejected the internationally recognized and UN-sanctioned Palestinian right of return. The Bush-Sharon agreement was the U.S. quid pro quo for Israel's decision to withdraw the illegal Israeli settlers and Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip. Bush thus essentially banished any commitment to achieving a serious and comprehensive solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Bush's "new status quo"—permanent Israeli occupation, no right of return for Palestinians, and no viable Palestinian state—has set the terms for the next indefinite period.

'nuff said...

[EDITED ONCE AGAIN FOR POTENTIALLY INFLAMMATORY CONTENT] One day I'll learn...

[DeepIron]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...mas/index.html

Two of the most sensible things I've read yet:

"I'm not a negotiator. I'm just trying to understand different opinions and communicate, provide communications between people that won't communicate with each other," Carter said earlier this week at the start of his trip.

You should never give in to the terrorists; you should never accept their demands, but you should never be the ones refusing to talk," said Jonathan Powell, who was chief of staff for former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. In more than a decade in his job, Powell supported a secret channel of communication to sworn enemies in the Northern Ireland conflict. He said it was the only way to make peace.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

There can be no peace between Israel and Palestine without Hamas, seeing as how they represent the majority of Palestinians.

This is only because you are willing to give them legitimacy.

The current US/Syrian/Israeli attitude of isolation will do nothing but harden attitudes.

Hardly - we don't negotiate with terrorists since that only encourages more of the same actions.

They are a terrorist group, yes. But they are also the legitimately electedd governement of the Palestinian people, which itself demands a response other than ignorance.

oh are they? Did they not force people to vote for them? I believe they did. And any person that takes joy in the killing of my people, or the Jewish people... Why do you support these barbaric acts? Are you a Muslim that enjoys the killing of Westerners? Every post you make on the subject points that direction.

Saying that this visit by Carter is what confers legitimacy on Hamas is silly, and insulting to those who elected them.

No one ELECTED him to do this. Did you elect him? You probably did after the fact, but your vote means nothing in the US, so it means nothing. So I hope its insulting to the people who elected him - which is one person - Carter, who is the only one who elected that he do this on his own. He needs to be insulted.

Now since the Koran requires that Hamas kill the Jews, nothing will come of this either, except insults to the Western world. And I'll tell you who its really insulting to - the United States of America. Screw Carter. He might as well stay over there since he is not welcome over here anymore.

-S

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

This is only because you are willing to give them legitimacy.

Are you joking? Most Palestinians support Hamas, it is therefore logical that agreement between Israel and Palestine will, at least these days, involve Hamas. Excluding Hamas from discussion will embitter their supporters, making further progress that much more difficult in a region where unnecessary problems have to be avoided. THe legitimacy, however distasteful, is already conferred through election.

Hardly - we don't negotiate with terrorists since that only encourages more of the same actions.

Hamas occupy the unusual position of being both terrorists and popularly elected government. If you want peace in the Middle East, you deal with the factions that exist, not imaginary ones. Excluding Hamas alienates a huge number of people, and popular support for a workable peace is desperately needed.

oh are they? Did they not force people to vote for them? I believe they did.

The elections were professionally conducted, albeit with tactical platforming by Hamas which makes their majority appear more than it actually is.

And any person that takes joy in the killing of my people, or the Jewish people... Why do you support these barbaric acts?

No straw men please, I've never said anything of the sort. I'm advocating negotiation in the place of exclusion and conflict. If you have to invent things to argue then please do it with someone else's posts.

Are you a Muslim that enjoys the killing of Westerners? Every post you make on the subject points that direction.

Back this up please. Failing that, keep your vaguely racist constructions to yourself.

No one ELECTED him to do this. Did you elect him? You probably did after the fact, but your vote means nothing in the US, so it means nothing. So I hope its insulting to the people who elected him - which is one person - Carter, who is the only one who elected that he do this on his own. He needs to be insulted.

You misunderstand. I am referring to the election of Hamas, not Carter.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Are you joking? Most Palestinians support Hamas, it is therefore logical that agreement between Israel and Palestine will, at least these days, involve Hamas. Excluding Hamas from discussion will embitter their supporters, making further progress that much more difficult in a region where unnecessary problems have to be avoided. THe legitimacy, however distasteful, is already conferred through election.

Hamas occupy the unusual position of being both terrorists and popularly elected government. If you want peace in the Middle East, you deal with the factions that exist, not imaginary ones. Excluding Hamas alienates a huge number of people, and popular support for a workable peace is desperately needed.

The elections were professionally conducted, albeit with tactical platforming by Hamas which makes their majority appear more than it actually is.

No straw men please, I've never said anything of the sort. I'm advocating negotiation in the place of exclusion and conflict. If you have to invent things to argue then please do it with someone else's posts.

Back this up please. Failing that, keep your vaguely racist constructions to yourself.

You misunderstand. I am referring to the election of Hamas, not Carter.

Basically, if you have anything of substance to add other than attacks, then please, lets continue this discussion. This is a pretty pathetic response.

-S

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Basically, if you have anything of substance to add other than attacks, then please, lets continue this discussion. This is a pretty pathetic response.

-S

See the first two segments of my post. They describe why I feel that engagement is a better policy than exclusion.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

See the first two segments of my post. They describe why I feel that engagement is a better policy than exclusion.

Well, on the idea that its a good idea this is happening, though its not, but if it was, remember who you are dealing with. Carter is known for having no clue on how to deal with terrorists organizations. He just doesn't understand them. He thinks they think like him, and they aren't.

Your first clue that he doesn't understand them is that he is going there in the first place against the wishes of anyone who has advised him on the subject.

Your second clue is 444 days of hostage crisis in Iran during his presidency. You also had airline hijacking through this time, and he couldn't resolve those either. These people simply used him in the past to further their aims and goals, and they are doing it yet again.

I can't believe he just doesn't get it, yet how could we have elected him as president for 4 years? It is pretty obvious why he didn't get a second term.

-S

PS. The point is - Carter is giving them a platform in the world where none existed before. His simple presence means people are going to look. This is how they are using him.

[DeepIron]

These people simply used him in the past to further their aims and goals, and they are doing it yet again.

How so? I haven't seen one single article or item that indicates that Hamas or any other group is using this event in any propagandist way. Not one...

PS. The point is - Carter is giving them a platform in the world where none existed before. His simple presence means people are going to look. This is how they are using him.

No one has "used" him yet. As for a platform, I'm glad to see Carter involved in this humanitarian crisis. What don't these people deserve to exist? Aren't Palestinians human beings?

Everyone wants to color this through "terrorism-colored" glasses. I call BS. These are people who are being denied their existence. Just like the friggin' Jews... And the Jews NEVER let the world forget about THEIR struggle.

Just like the world judges the US by the actions of our government, so we are guilty of the same thing. We forget these are PEOPLE, not just a religious idealism. Hamas IS a legally recognized government whether we like it or not.

Shutting them out and closing the channels of communications the way the US and Israel have leaves the Palestinians little choice in how to be heard by the rest of the world.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

How so? I haven't seen one single article or item that indicates that Hamas or anyother group is using this event in any propagandist way. Not one...

No one has "used" him yet. As for a platform, I'm glad to see Carter involved in this humanitarian crisis. What don't these people deserve to exist? Aren't Palestinians human beings?

Everyone wants to color this through "terrorism-colored" glasses. I call BS. These are people who are being denied their existence. Just like the friggin' Jews... And the Jews NEVER let the world forget about THEIR struggle.

Just like the world judges the US by the actions of our government, so we are guilty of the same thing. We forget these are PEOPLE, not just a religious idealism. Hamas IS a legally recognized government whether we like it or not.

Shutting them out and closing the channels of communications the way the US and Israel have leaves the Palestinians little choice in how to be heard by the rest of the world.

Here is your people:

-S

HAMAS

Militancy and terrorism


Suicide attacks

Suicide attacks are the main element of what the group sees as its asymmetric warfare against Israel. Since the group considers all Israel to be a "militarized society" Hamas condones attacks on civilian targets. The group's willingness to target civilian facilities including buses, supermarkets, and restaurants is the reason why some governments classify it as a terrorist movement (although Hamas claims being a national liberation movement).

Hamas' first use of suicide bombing occurred on April 16, 1993 when a suicide bomber driving an explosive-laden van detonated between two buses parked at a restaurant. It was Hamas' 19th known attack since 1989 (the others being shootings, kidnappings and knife attacks).[98]
Hamas continued to launch suicide attacks during the Oslo Accords period (see List of Hamas suicide attacks).

During the second Intifada, Hamas, along with the Islamic Jihad Movement, spearheaded the violence through the years of the Palestinian uprising.[99] Since then Hamas has conducted many attacks on Israel, mainly through its military wing — the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. These attacks have included large-scale suicide bombings against Israeli civilian targets, the most deadly of which was the bombing of a Netanya hotel on March 27, 2002, in which 30 people were killed and 140 were wounded. This attack has also been referred to as the Passover massacre since it took place on the first night of the Jewish festival of Passover. Overall, from November 2000 to April 2004, 377 Israeli citizens and soldiers were killed and 2,076 wounded in 425 attacks by Hamas. (Source: IDF website.) The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs maintains a comprehensive list of Hamas attacks. March 2004.htm
In a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes and crimes against humanity" that have been committed by its members.[100]
A few female suicide bombers, including a mother of six and a mother of two children under the age of 10 have also executed suicide bombings. Abdel Aziz Rantisi has said,

"The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians."[101]

In May 2006 Israel arrested Hamas top official Ibrahim Hamed whom Israeli security officials claim was responsible for dozens of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis.[102]
On Feb 7, 2008 Hamas resumed the suicide bombings against civilian targets inside Israel killing an 74 year old woman and wounding her husband and other civilians[23],[24],[25],[26],[27]
On March 5, 2008 various news services reported that Hamas had claimed responsibility for the killing of 8 Yeshiva students in Jerusalem. [103] A spokesman for Hamas has rebutted the claim, stating that it is "an honour we have not claimed yet", and the official position is that the attack has been attributed to the "Free Men of Galilee", who are affiliated with Hezbollah. [104]

Shelling and rocket attacks on civilians

Since 2002, Hamas has used homemade Qassam rockets to hit Israeli towns in the Negev, such as Sderot. The introduction of the Qassam-2 rocket has allowed Hamas to reach large Israeli cities such as Ashkelon, bringing great concern to the Israeli populace and many attempts by the Israeli military to stop the proliferation and use of the rockets. On March 2008 one of Hamas politburo members sent a letter to Arab leaders urging them not to condem attacks on civilians[28]

Guerilla warfare


Hamas has made great use of guerrilla tactics in the Gaza Strip and to a lesser degree the West Bank.[105] Hamas has successfully adapted these techniques over the years since its inception. According to a 2006 report by rival Fatah party, Hamas had smuggled "between several hundred and 1,300 tons" of advanced rockets, along with other weaponry, into Gaza. Some Israelis and some Gazans both noted similarities in Hamas's military buildup to that of Hezbollah in the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.[105]
Hamas has used IEDs and anti-tank rockets against the IDF in Gaza. The latter include standard RPG-7 warheads and home-made rockets such as the Al-Bana, Al-Batar and Al-Yasin. The home-made rockets proved ineffective against Israeli armor[citation needed], while Popular Resistance Committees' IEDs destroyed 3 Israeli tanks in 2002. The IDF has a difficult, if not impossible time trying to find hidden weapons caches in Palestinian areas — this is due to the high local support base Hamas enjoys.[106]

Others attacked

In addition to killing Israeli civilians, Hamas has also attacked Israeli military and security forces (occasionally inside Israel), suspected Palestinian collaborators, and Fatah rivals.[107]
On February 2007, members of the Palestinian Red Crescent, speaking on conditions on anonymity, said that Hamas had confiscated their humanitarian supply convoys that were destined for Palestinian civilians. Hamas claims the supplies were heading to former members of Fatah. [108]

Call to attack United States targets

On November 8, 2006 the military wing of Hamas called on Muslims around the world to attack American targets. "America is offering political, financial and logistic cover for the Zionist occupation crimes, and it is responsible for the Beit Hanoun massacre. Therefore, the people and the nation all over the globe are required to teach the American enemy tough lessons," Hamas said in a statement sent to The Associated Press. Ghazi Hamad, spokesman for the Hamas-led Palestinian government said that the group had no intention of attacking American targets and denied any involvement with the statement.[109]
It has been alleged that Hamas threatens the United States through covert cells on U.S. soil, and that the FBI and United States Department of Justice are aware of these cells.[110][111] Hamas has repeatedly stated that it is only interested in operations against the Israeli occupation and not a single suicide attack outside Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank has ever been attributed to Hamas.

Summary executions

Human Rights Watch has cited a number of summary executions as particular examples of violations of the rules of warfare, including the case of Muhammad Swairki, 28, a cook for Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's presidential guard, who was thrown to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City. [29],[30],[31]
Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups frequently extrajudicially execute or otherwise punish those they consider collaborators with Israel. Frequent killings of unarmed people have also occurred during Hamas-Fatah clashes.[32],[33], [34],[35],[36]

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

How so? I haven't seen one single article or item that indicates that Hamas or anyother group is using this event in any propagandist way. Not one...

No one has "used" him yet. As for a platform, I'm glad to see Carter involved in this humanitarian crisis. What don't these people deserve to exist? Aren't Palestinians human beings?

Everyone wants to color this through "terrorism-colored" glasses. I call BS. These are people who are being denied their existence. Just like the friggin' Jews... And the Jews NEVER let the world forget about THEIR struggle.

Just like the world judges the US by the actions of our government, so we are guilty of the same thing. We forget these are PEOPLE, not just a religious idealism. Hamas IS a legally recognized government whether we like it or not.

Shutting them out and closing the channels of communications the way the US and Israel have leaves the Palestinians little choice in how to be heard by the rest of the world.

There is no excuse for Hamas, they dont recognize Israels right to exist, they never will. The Palestinians struggle is of their own making, they have the power to stop the violance by not voting to terrorists. This is just another front of global Jihad and any Hamas supporter i consider as enemies.

[DeepIron]

So, what your saying is that it was perfectly acceptable to establish Israel as a nation by forcing the Palestinians from their lands... The Palestinians occupied the area now known as Israel for thousands of years until 1946... And you expect them to just "give up"?

Check out the map...

http://www.friendsofpalestine.org.au...0Map%20Big.jpg

This is akin to the destruction of the Native American Nations in America during the expansion years in the 1800's....

[JSLTIGER]

Again, from my earlier post:

Originally Posted by JSLTIGER

To respond to this one, if Hamas was legitimately elected to a legitimate governmental body, then that makes the actions of the entire party a governmental action.

Hamas was the group in charge when members of Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier by the name of Gilad Shalit in 2006. As you've already established that Hamas legitimately was elected to a legitimate government body, then that means that the actions of its members represent the actions of the Palestinian government. I don't know what you call the kidnapping of one government's agent by another government's agent, but AFAIK, it's called an act of war.

You cannot separate "Hamas" from "Hamas' militant wing." They are one and the same, sharing the same ideas and views. You cannot simply select the parts of Hamas that you want to and not hold them responsible for Hamas' actions.

This is the type of people Carter's talking with (from a Reuters story published today):

Hamas was open to the release of the soldier, Gilad Shalit, "but not without a price," Nazzal said. Hamas has previously demanded Israel free hundreds of jailed Palestinians in return for his release.

When does the price become too high?

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Just like the friggin' Jews...

I take extreme offense at that remark. It is incredibly inappropriate.



I wonder also, why no one remembers this?



Why should we be supporting these people?

[DeepIron]

I take extreme offense at that remark. It is incredibly inappropriate.

I apologize then. For my part, I'm incredibly tired of hearing about the Jews and THEIR struggle to survive when I look at their hypocrisy in what is being done to the Palestinian people.