Iranian Submarine - Page 3

Reaves · 12-03-07, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swifty

The Ghadiar-Class

Quote:

5. – Submarines
Iran has a rapidly expanding submarine fleet has at least three large conventional submarines, and two "mini-subs". Whilst many reports cite North Korean mini-sub technology as a key factor, the designs are essentially home grown.

IMO mini subs are ideal for defending coastal areas. Even one of these could pose a real threat to an invading force. Missile frigates and carriers would be easy targets causing an 'Opertation Shock and Awe' type assault to end in a possible disaster for the attacker.

Iran are simply letting the world know that if you attack them, it's not going to be as easy as 'capturing' Iraq.

Chock · 12-03-07, 09:42 PM

It's interesting to speculate on how good the Iranian submarines are, but some of that is probably a moot point anyway, as the complexity of the topography of the ocean floor, the Tigris outflow and Gulf of Oman inflow coupled with the wildly varying depths, temperatures and levels of salinity in that particular stretch of water are going to make it difficult to detect any sub as long as it isn't cranking along at twenty knots just under the surface. And that works both ways, it's going to be tricky for a sub to locate stuff too at the degree of accuracy required for a shot with all that freaky water behaviour bending sound transmissions around all over the place, which I guess means 'local knowledge' might just come into play.

So it would be also interesting to know just how good the Iranian's survey knowledge is of the ocean floor topography and sound transmission behaviour in that area, as knowledge of that has traditionally not been that great as far as Western powers go. Following the recent Gulf War, both US and British ships have been conducting bathymetric surveys of the region and they recently handed much of that data over to the Iraqi Navy as part of the overall plan to have the Iraqis police the waters themselves, so some new data is reasonably widely available. But that survey was far from complete, aimed largely at harbour navigation in fact, and as far as I'm aware, HMS Echo and Enterprise are still merrily sailing around there doing more work along those lines, or at least, they were until recently.

What I'd also be interested in knowing, is how good the Iranian's C-cubed data is that can be transmitted to an Iranian sub floating a wire, so that it could learn surface ship dispositions from satellite and aerial reconnaissance. And that might be a tad trickier for the Iranians, as there's no doubt they are not going to be leaders in satellite, AWACs and jamming capabilities in comparison to someone such as the US, at least not at the moment anyway, although for much of that stretch of water, ships are going to be plainly visible from the land, so I guess that might not be that hard to circumvent much of the time.

It's a massively complex region as far as sonar detection goes, and you can get some idea of that from this (rather boring and technical) but informative article:

http://www.whoi.edu/science/PO/peopl...ulation_ms.pdf

I bet all this would make a brilliant sub sim if someone could pull it off:rotfl: That was a hint, by the way, Sonalysts

Chock

August · 12-03-07, 10:21 PM

It's never good practice to underestimate ones enemy, but neither is underestimating ones friends.

It's a safe bet in a shooting war against the US, that Irans sub base is going to be rather quickly turned into a smoking ruin long before any US ship is within "littoral" waters, and that those subs, if any survive that attack, are going to be very actively hunted until their threat is eliminated.

Here's an interesting article at miltary.com which talks about Irans sub threat:

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/...hkval,,00.html

Herr_Pete · 12-04-07, 07:03 AM

fair point, never underestimate ur enemy. but the thing is, if any war breaks out between the US and Iran. We all know for a fact the US will bomb anything that poses a slight threat to them. Then send in the navy to do what they can and if those subs are out in the sea they will be hunted down n no doubt destroyed.

swifty · 12-05-07, 01:25 PM

Thanks Niel for posting the video on the home page.

After seeing it it doesnt look like the threat it once was. It appears as though it uses windows as an operating system I can just see it:

WO: Capitan solution ready.
Capt: Ready fire tubes...

God damn it... I mean Allah.

Pingjockey · 12-07-07, 12:43 PM

As a real US Navy submarine sonar man (currently serving on the USS Texas) I would have to say that SSK's scare me. They are really very quiet and very deadly in shallow waters. I would not be suprised if the Iranian's flexed a little muscle in the Perisan Gulf and scared the crap out of someone in a suprise war game (IE: Like the chinese).

Pingjockey

Drebbel · 12-07-07, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr_Pete

love this iranian submarine that can't be detected by radar. bet ya the US find it in no time.

Isn't every submarine invisible to radar when submerged ?

August · 12-07-07, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr_Pete

love this iranian submarine that can't be detected by radar. bet ya the US find it in no time.

Isn't every submarine invisible to radar when submerged ?

Drebbel! Long time no see (post). How have you been dude?

Greenwood · 12-07-07, 03:26 PM

If you dominite the air - and the surface of the ocean - why not just ping the crap out of everywhere, those mini-subs show up on active sonar yes? Whats a mini-sub going to do when hearing an active ping? Fire torps and reveal position!

Active sonar = dead mini-subs (if they show up on active sonar) And what about MAD sensors on ASW aircraft? min-subs show up on MAD sensors in shallow water?

JSLTIGER · 12-07-07, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingjockey

As a real US Navy submarine sonar man (currently serving on the USS Texas) I would have to say that SSK's scare me. They are really very quiet and very deadly in shallow waters. I would not be suprised if the Iranian's flexed a little muscle in the Perisan Gulf and scared the crap out of someone in a suprise war game (IE: Like the chinese).

Pingjockey

That's a bit disturbing as Texas is one of the "latest and greatest" Virginia-class boats...

Skybird · 12-07-07, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenwood

If you dominite the air - and the surface of the ocean - why not just ping the crap out of everywhere, those mini-subs show up on active sonar yes? Whats a mini-sub going to do when hearing an active ping? Fire torps and reveal position!

Active sonar = dead mini-subs (if they show up on active sonar) And what about MAD sensors on ASW aircraft? min-subs show up on MAD sensors in shallow water?

Do you run in the night because you sea somebody's pocket-torch in let's say 1500m distance? The Gulf has a square of 235.000 km2.

AntEater · 12-07-07, 06:25 PM

Active sonar can be countered by rubber tiling. I think every sub in the world has such coating now. Might be enough to defeat a dipping sonar or active sonobuoys.
Re MAD, you never heard of amagnetic steel?
HDW has been building antimagnetic subs for almost 50 years now (after a rough start), so I suppose Iran can at least construct a midget out of amagnetic steel.

Chock · 12-07-07, 06:32 PM

Quote:

why not just ping the crap out of everywhere, those mini-subs show up on active sonar yes? Whats a mini-sub going to do when hearing an active ping? Fire torps and reveal position!

Great, so now the minisub probably knows exactly where you are because you went active, meanwhile your active ping is bouncing back at you from all directions owing to the greatly varying contours of the gulf channel and the massively complex water make up that has huge differences in temperature gradient, density and salinity caused by everything from the rivers flowing into it, to the backwash through the Straits of Hormuz from the Gulf of Oman. Not to mention the fact that there may now also be a Shkval torpedo heading towards you at 250 knots. I'm sure US sub crews are gonna love that plan:rotfl:

Chock

Skybird · 12-07-07, 06:40 PM

average depth 100m
salinity 4%

Wikipedia said the very high salinity is reached because of the high condensation rate and the very minor water input into the gulf replacing it.

Chock · 12-07-07, 06:44 PM

Yes, but that is the average, I mean sub skippers don't say, 'take us down to 100m chief, we'll not hit the bottom because that's the average depth here', do they?

Besides which, I think I'd take the word of several oceanographic surveys (including one in progress right now by HMS Echo) over wikipedia, especially if I was a sub skipper!

Chock

12-03-07, 09:42 PM	#32
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It's interesting to speculate on how good the Iranian submarines are, but some of that is probably a moot point anyway, as the complexity of the topography of the ocean floor, the Tigris outflow and Gulf of Oman inflow coupled with the wildly varying depths, temperatures and levels of salinity in that particular stretch of water are going to make it difficult to detect any sub as long as it isn't cranking along at twenty knots just under the surface. And that works both ways, it's going to be tricky for a sub to locate stuff too at the degree of accuracy required for a shot with all that freaky water behaviour bending sound transmissions around all over the place, which I guess means 'local knowledge' might just come into play. So it would be also interesting to know just how good the Iranian's survey knowledge is of the ocean floor topography and sound transmission behaviour in that area, as knowledge of that has traditionally not been that great as far as Western powers go. Following the recent Gulf War, both US and British ships have been conducting bathymetric surveys of the region and they recently handed much of that data over to the Iraqi Navy as part of the overall plan to have the Iraqis police the waters themselves, so some new data is reasonably widely available. But that survey was far from complete, aimed largely at harbour navigation in fact, and as far as I'm aware, HMS Echo and Enterprise are still merrily sailing around there doing more work along those lines, or at least, they were until recently. What I'd also be interested in knowing, is how good the Iranian's C-cubed data is that can be transmitted to an Iranian sub floating a wire, so that it could learn surface ship dispositions from satellite and aerial reconnaissance. And that might be a tad trickier for the Iranians, as there's no doubt they are not going to be leaders in satellite, AWACs and jamming capabilities in comparison to someone such as the US, at least not at the moment anyway, although for much of that stretch of water, ships are going to be plainly visible from the land, so I guess that might not be that hard to circumvent much of the time. It's a massively complex region as far as sonar detection goes, and you can get some idea of that from this (rather boring and technical) but informative article: http://www.whoi.edu/science/PO/peopl...ulation_ms.pdf I bet all this would make a brilliant sub sim if someone could pull it off:rotfl: That was a hint, by the way, Sonalysts Chock __________________

12-03-07, 10:21 PM	#33
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It's never good practice to underestimate ones enemy, but neither is underestimating ones friends. It's a safe bet in a shooting war against the US, that Irans sub base is going to be rather quickly turned into a smoking ruin long before any US ship is within "littoral" waters, and that those subs, if any survive that attack, are going to be very actively hunted until their threat is eliminated. Here's an interesting article at miltary.com which talks about Irans sub threat: http://www.military.com/soldiertech/...hkval,,00.html __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

12-07-07, 06:25 PM	#42
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Active sonar can be countered by rubber tiling. I think every sub in the world has such coating now. Might be enough to defeat a dipping sonar or active sonobuoys. Re MAD, you never heard of amagnetic steel? HDW has been building antimagnetic subs for almost 50 years now (after a rough start), so I suppose Iran can at least construct a midget out of amagnetic steel. __________________

12-07-07, 06:40 PM	#44
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,611 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	average depth 100m salinity 4% Wikipedia said the very high salinity is reached because of the high condensation rate and the very minor water input into the gulf replacing it. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-07-07, 06:44 PM	#45
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes, but that is the average, I mean sub skippers don't say, 'take us down to 100m chief, we'll not hit the bottom because that's the average depth here', do they? Besides which, I think I'd take the word of several oceanographic surveys (including one in progress right now by HMS Echo) over wikipedia, especially if I was a sub skipper! Chock __________________

12-04-07, 07:03 AM	#34
Herr_Pete Commodore Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 623 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	fair point, never underestimate ur enemy. but the thing is, if any war breaks out between the US and Iran. We all know for a fact the US will bomb anything that poses a slight threat to them. Then send in the navy to do what they can and if those subs are out in the sea they will be hunted down n no doubt destroyed.

12-05-07, 01:25 PM	#35
swifty Soundman Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: S. Florida Posts: 141 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Thanks Niel for posting the video on the home page. After seeing it it doesnt look like the threat it once was. It appears as though it uses windows as an operating system I can just see it: WO: Capitan solution ready. Capt: Ready fire tubes... God damn it... I mean Allah.

12-07-07, 12:43 PM	#36
Pingjockey Sailor man Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sorento, IL Posts: 48 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	As a real US Navy submarine sonar man (currently serving on the USS Texas) I would have to say that SSK's scare me. They are really very quiet and very deadly in shallow waters. I would not be suprised if the Iranian's flexed a little muscle in the Perisan Gulf and scared the crap out of someone in a suprise war game (IE: Like the chinese). Pingjockey

12-07-07, 03:26 PM	#39
Greenwood Seaman Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 33 Downloads: 112 Uploads: 0	If you dominite the air - and the surface of the ocean - why not just ping the crap out of everywhere, those mini-subs show up on active sonar yes? Whats a mini-sub going to do when hearing an active ping? Fire torps and reveal position! Active sonar = dead mini-subs (if they show up on active sonar) And what about MAD sensors on ASW aircraft? min-subs show up on MAD sensors in shallow water?