I miss Silent Hunter 1

[ijozic]

Originally Posted by Chock

B-17 2: The Mighty Eighth (another flight sim well loved and well modded by many) also did this kind of thing and it added a personal touch to what, in simulations, can be sometimes a little clinical. IL-2 (yet another flight sim) went the opposite way, and it suffers greatly for that in my opinion, in that it's a great sim, but it has perhaps the most soul-less interface of any game ever.

I agree completely and I'd like to add Lock On as a representative of a modern sim which has the same issue.

[Fer32]

Originally Posted by mcoca

Years and years ago (gosh, I must be getting old), I was completely hooked to the original Silent Hunter. I played it for years, despite the fact that nobody ever bothered to translate the patches to the Spanish version, so I was stuck playing the retail version (1.0?).

I just loved the excitement, the way you went from hunter to prey in an instant when the first torpedo went off. I loved being chased by destroyers diving like crazy, taking my boat to the outer edges of test depth with an eye on the bathythermograph, hoping to find a thermal layer before I hit bottom or the boat was crushed.

Somehow this excitement is just missing in SH4. Yesterday I sunk my 50th merchant or so. I just snapped, and went into a group of unescorted merchants, surfaced and guns blazing. Why bother taking the stealth approach, when there is no risk? I've only been depth charged once in the entire game, and the destroyer gave up a minute after losing contact and returned to its escort station. I continued my approach and sunk a couple of ships.

You can sink tens of thousands of tons without seeing a destroyer, and when you do, it's with a convoy so large it can't really protect it. I miss those small convoys from SH1: 2-3 merchants protected by 1-2 destroyers. The fight was almost personal. Maybe not exactly realistic, but much more fun. My average SH1 career lasted two or three patrols, and generally ended when I tried to attack a task force. Now I only get killed by aircraft.

Please don't get me wrong, I enjoy SH4 a lot, even with all the small problems, or I wouldn't have spent all this time playing it. It has many small details that I missed in other subsims. I really like how you can keep requesting new orders that send you all over the Pacific. But that special touch is missing.

Does anybody else feel the same way, or am I just suffering from Grampa Simpson syndrome?

mcoca, for me the excitement only occurs the first time I play a new genre that I have not played before, for example, my very first game happened to be a flight simulator: Red Baron 3D, and I was hooked inmediately, so I started to buy a lot of the known good fligh sims out there but, I never felt the same like my first time with Red Baron, in fact, I started to feel a little boured. Then, I saw in a magazine add about a realistic FPS combat simulator, so I gave it a try. Wow, it was the great Operation Flashpoint . When I played it , I did feel fear, ansiety, joy and exciment trough the excelent campaing so, after some time, my house was full of every new FPS that arrived, but guess what, it was never the same feeling I had with OF, see the point? When we have already played lots and lots of games, most of them about the same period of time and war, its never like the first time

[jmr]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Thus, I will not be suprised to find after perhaps spending three months with SH3 that I may end up back in DOSBOX with AOD.

It's been ages since I last played AOD but what I love most about SHIII and IV is having the ability to do manual plotting along with manually entering target parameters into the TDC. Again it's been awhile and you can correct me on this, but in AOD, EVERYTHING was done automatically for you, was it not? I recall very little player input in the whole TDC process.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by jmr

Again it's been awhile and you can correct me on this, but in AOD, EVERYTHING was done automatically for you, was it not? I recall very little player input in the whole TDC process.

You are fully correct. In AOD, there was only what we today know as "Auto-Targetting", even when playing at 100% realism.

In SHI, however, you could go *fully* manual on the TDC if you dared. And really, the TDC representation itself was more comprehensive and realistic than SHIV. Well, the *look* of the dials is more true to history in SHIV, but the *function* and dials available was more realistic in SHI. You also had a "BEARING, MARK" Button there. What was missing on the other hand was a Stadimeter, but you could get range nontheless by the increments on the periscope lines when knowing the masthead heights. So, while the *functioning* of the TDC in SHI was nothing short of perfect in terms of realism, it was hampered by the technology available back in 1996, which had the ships - while good looking - only rendered in 2D, so the AOBs of the ships you saw on screen changed ("jumped") visibly only in steps of some 15-20 degrees, which made manual targetting pretty tough. The way out of this was using the overhead "God's eye view" map, which would show angles accurately for every single degree, but at the same time provide you with, well, an unrealistic "God's eye view".

So, in the end, I think it would not have been bad to stick to the near perfect simulation of the TDC - that SHI provided - in SHIV, esecially now that we got the graphics power and technology to also use it in a realistic manner without the need to refer to a God's eye view overhead map to input proper data. You had a shortened number of dials in SHI while looking through the periscope, similar to what we have now in SHIV (still more dials though), but you *also* could raise the TDC screen alone which would fill your entire monitor showing also the other important dials all on one screen. That was some pretty good ****. Too bad we now only have this fake TDC output screen in the 3D interior instead of a usable 2D one as in SHI. Really, sometimes this rush for 3d and eye-candy is just pointless.

Still, there are only exactly two games which ever atempted to simulate the US TDC as it was on US subs in the PTO - and these games are SHI and SHIV. And in both, the main features of it are covered just about right. SHI did it better, but you could not really use it in a realistic manner cause of the gfx limitations. SHIV does the TDC itself more spartanic than SHI, but you can use it in a more realistic manner. So, in the end, I would call it a draw.

[Torpex752]

Originally Posted by heartc

You are fully correct. In AOD, there was only what we today know as "Auto-Targetting", even when playing at 100% realism.

In SHI, however, you could go *fully* manual on the TDC if you dared. And really, the TDC representation itself was more comprehensive and realistic than SHIV. Well, the *look* of the dials is more true to history in SHIV, but the *function* and dials available was more realistic in SHI. You also had a "BEARING, MARK" Button there. What was missing on the other hand was a Stadimeter, but you could get range nontheless by the increments on the periscope lines when knowing the masthead heights. So, while the *functioning* of the TDC in SHI was nothing short of perfect in terms of realism, it was hampered by the technology available back in 1996, which had the ships - while good looking - only rendered in 2D, so the AOBs of the ships you saw on screen changed ("jumped") visibly only in steps of some 15-20 degrees, which made manual targetting pretty tough. The way out of this was using the overhead "God's eye view" map, which would show angles accurately for every single degree, but at the same time provide you with, well, an unrealistic "God's eye view".

So, in the end, I think it would not have been bad to stick to the near perfect simulation of the TDC - that SHI provided - in SHIV, esecially now that we got the graphics power and technology to also use it in a realistic manner without the need to refer to a God's eye view overhead map to input proper data. You had a shortened number of dials in SHI while looking through the periscope, similar to what we have now in SHIV (still more dials though), but you *also* could raise the TDC screen alone which would fill your entire monitor showing also the other important dials all on one screen. That was some pretty good ****. Too bad we now only have this fake TDC output screen in the 3D interior instead of a usable 2D one as in SHI. Really, sometimes this rush for 3d and eye-candy is just pointless.

Still, there are only exactly two games which ever atempted to simulate the US TDC as it was on US subs in the PTO - and these games are SHI and SHIV. And in both, the main features of it are covered just about right. SHI did it better, but you could not really use it in a realistic manner cause of the gfx limitations. SHIV does the TDC itself more spartanic than SHI, but you can use it in a more realistic manner. So, in the end, I would call it a draw.

You are correct about the TDC vs grafics in SH1! I can honestly say that that TDC was/is the best TDC to date.

Frank

[Hartmann]

[Sailor Steve]

One of the things I do like about SH3 (and I presume SH4 is the same) is the ability to have realistic maps, in the sense of not seeing everything that's within range every time the periscope is up. I'm a huge fan of the 'Assisted Plotting Mod' for SH3, and hope to see one like it in SH4 soon.

On the other hand, Hartmann, those screens do bring out the nostalgia.

[jhelix70]

Those pics made me nostalgic

I miss the radar dispay. Clear, 2D panels and the radar actually worked properly.

[melin71]

Im too played silent hunter 1, silen service, and something many seems not remeber at all. a game called up periscope. i remember that game, to be very great. but that is VERY old game, i played that on my comandor 64 back in -84 or something like that. but very strange..i never play AOD...what i remember.

I too miss more interaktiv with the sub. and I allmost feel trapped. you got only 3 postioen in the sub. commander room, brighde, and tower. problem with this..less interaktiv are that you can play the game only with use of your map and periscope. you NEVER need too be in commander room or brige. becrouse..what shall you do there??.

But if you had to interaktiv with statioen and stuff in commander room. then we talking. if you had to walk to radio station for get latest message, and so on. if you want to see the map. you walk to the map tabel. that had greated a more interaktiv sub, you wants to bridge..you climb up for the ladder. no fast buttons to get to station. i think this should make at least me more the..im there feeling. problem with this...I guess....I will never see a game that will put me REALLY in a sub..i should not be surprised if we only get the bridge next version. maby if some other company starts to make sub games...maby.

[Chock]

I'm fully in agreement with probably most people who have messed around with computer games and simulations for years, in that there was perhaps more 'love' put into the gameplay in older games. I do believe that if 3D environments for the interior of a submarine are going to be added to a game, then they ought to have some functionality over and above mere eye candy.

Oddly enough, flight simulator developers have been slow to do this too, despite the more apparent requirement for it to add to immersion and the fact that flight sims tend to 'push the envelope' in terms of 3D graphics advances. In its current state, it is possible to 'walk' around the interior of your Boeing 747 in MS Flight Simulator, but without any passengers on board (although this is starting to happen) or any real reason to do it, it merely becomes wow factor eye candy.

One innovation that is good in this respect however, is Track IR, which does help tremendously with flight sims, and not just combat ones either. It is truly something to behold in the brilliant gliding simulator 'Condor'. A genuine advance not just for the sake of 'because we can do it'.

Those who were in at the start of SH multiplayer implementation will doubtless remember the shaky multiplayer performance that went with it, which was particularly annoying to behold when you'd spent a couple of hours setting up for an attack with a buddy, only to have your session bomb out. SH4 is massively more stable in this respect and so there is one advance that earlier subsims cannot match, given that most of them didn't even have the option. Although again it lags behind flight sims in that the current MS FS will allow you to link up online and have your friend as the co-pilot alongside you, which is great fun by the way. There were promises that this was going to happen in Microprose's B-17 2 some years ago, but sadly that never happened, nevertheless several current combat flight sims will let two or more people be in the same aircraft, and this seems to be something of a required feature of them these days. so it's not hard to see that future renditions of SH might allow you to be the XO or TDC operator on a sub while your buddy is the skipper - I bet that will lead to some Run Silent, Run Deep-style disagreements!

Back in the realms of submarine simulations and what might make them more involved so that they are a genuine advance on those of yesteryear, I should like to see more involvment with the crew (in either 2D or 3D). Having someone panic because of shell shock 'Johann style' or dealing with insubordination are just two ideas that might be fun. As would having your simulated XO make a tactical suggestion to you. Offering you a couple of choices in matters would also be nice to see, such as: 'Do you want to cannibalise the radar set to get your radio working?', or whatever.

There is still plenty of scope for sub sims to improve, that's for sure.

[MarkShot]

You are correct. AOD only has auto-targetting. SH1 had auto or manual.

However, the auto-targetting of AOD is not the fool proof long range solutions which you get in SH3 when you use auto-targetting or ask the weapon officer. Thus, missing quite frequently happened at long ranges. I am not sure if crew skill had an impact on this. There are three levels in AOD.

Although I can appreciate that there are those who prefer to completely manually calculate their solutions (doing everything off the map with plotting and math), I would be happy with falible auto-targetting similar to AOD. I like to play the role of the subs captain. I am responsible for the main decisions: when, where, and how to attack and how to disengage/evade following the attack. I don't feel the need to necessarily workout AOB or speed from screw turns or wake form. In real life, there was a whole tracking party/attack team which handled this. Although the captain did a lot of it when submerged with sightings, it was not a one man show. So, trying to do this all yourself while letting the game run in realtime is perhaps beyond realistic.

With that said, I think SH3's notepad approach to solution creation is a good game play/realism compromise. It forces the player to bring his boat in much closer if he hopes to sink anything. This increases challenge, since the window for successful disengagement becomes much smaller. (Generally, I begin disengaging as soon as my tubes are empty without waiting to see the results of the attack.)

[doggydoggo]

I didn't get into sub sims until well after SH2 came out, and I bought it off of ebay for a couple bucks. I spent many a great hours with that one. I miss the voices of that crew. Very distinctive, indeed. I noticed with SHIII that engines stoped overheating. I can't tell you how many frustrating times I had to stop pursuing a convoy or a DD caught up witgh me because my engines overheated. lol.

While I do appreciate the great work UBI did with the 3D graphics in SH4, the environment isn't very interactive. I know the game got pushed out early, but it would be cool to manually work the bow or stern planes or other duties within the 3D interface.

I suppose that will be on the wishlist for SH5.

BTW, I highly recommend the Ultimate Sound mod, as it adds a lot of personality to your crew when you surface or dive. Fun!

[heartc]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Although I can appreciate that there are those who prefer to completely manually calculate their solutions (doing everything off the map with plotting and math), I would be happy with falible auto-targetting similar to AOD. I like to play the role of the subs captain. I am responsible for the main decisions: when, where, and how to attack and how to disengage/evade following the attack. I don't feel the need to necessarily workout AOB or speed from screw turns or wake form. In real life, there was a whole tracking party/attack team which handled this. Although the captain did a lot of it when submerged with sightings, it was not a one man show. So, trying to do this all yourself while letting the game run in realtime is perhaps beyond realistic.

I don't know where this notion comes from, but you don't have to calc squat for manual targetting. You just enter what you see. End of story. And this is what the captain did iRL, too. People tend to confuse plotting and targetting and talk about them like they're the same while they're not. To simulate a plotting party, ship positions should be auto entered on the map screen everytime you *manually* take a target position through the scope / TBT and then the plotting party would go on with plotting course and speed.

So, in fact SHIII's notepad approach as well as SHIV are no compromise, but the real deal from what the skipper in most cases did. Well, in theory you could improve on it by entering the data via voice comms. Turning away from the scope and start plotting on the map yourself on the other hand - which is not neccessary for targetting and shooting though - is not neccessarily realistic.

[mcoca]

Originally Posted by Chock

As would having your simulated XO make a tactical suggestion to you.

You say that, and I get this image of Lieutenant Clippy, your XO. "It looks like you're attacking a convoy. Would you like help?" :p

Seriously, good idea, but that kind of thing would require a real investment in AI, or it would be seriously annoying.

[EAF274 Johan]

Originally Posted by CCIP

And re: soul / soullessness factor - I don't think it's fair to accuse SHIV of doing that. As far as games in general and sims specifically go, you gotta admit that it went the longest way to put in some of those roleplaying elements - more so than any other sim I can remember for the past 6-7 years.

Very true!