[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[rfbranch]

I don't know if this is RFB related or not, but I was ordered to patrol the Marhsalls in my Tambor on a Dec 1st departure, but after completing that mission, I was not given a new assignment. I haven't had that heppen before so I started to steam towards wake to try and hold off the invasion force and WHOOPS two Bettys blew me to bits (bulkhead almost destroyed a/c went by quickly but they were heavier bombers so I’m fairly sure on the A/C type). This leads to my second question. Did I miss the Wake surrender message, or have these been changed in RFB?
Either way, thanks for the GREAT mod, enjoying it very much!

~rb

[Madfox]

Before 1.24 (so 1.23 and before that) I never had the same mission. Now I got the same mission for the fith time (drop agent in Singapore). I'll think I'll start a new career. This one is boring.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by rfbranch

I don't know if this is RFB related or not, but I was ordered to patrol the Marhsalls in my Tambor on a Dec 1st departure, but after completing that mission, I was not given a new assignment...

Most patrols only have one assignment - you do it then return to base. A few have secondary assignments that pop up after completing the first, but they're unusual.

By 'not given a new assignment' do you mean it wouldn't allow you to return to base?

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Madfox

Before 1.24 (so 1.23 and before that) I never had the same mission. Now I got the same mission for the fith time (drop agent in Singapore). I'll think I'll start a new career. This one is boring.

On what boat, flotilla and date was this happening?

Getting the same mission over and over is a bug in the standard game. As far as I know it has nothing to do with RFB and I very much doubt it was made worse with RFB 1.24.

I really wish the devs had released a better (less bug-ridden) product. I feel that modders often end up getting blamed for bugs that are the fault of the developers. It's very frustrating when the general assumption is that mods cause bugs, especially when I know that the bugs that developers create are probably more likely to be fixed by a mod than by a developer patch. When I modded Red Baron 2 my mod was blamed for about every game bug that the developers put in the game, and my mods fixed more of them than the RB2 devs ever fixed.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It's got to be more frustrating for you to find yourself being sent on the same mission over and over again.

[rfbranch]

Originally Posted by Beery

Most patrols only have one assignment - you do it then return to base. A few have secondary assignments that pop up after completing the first, but they're unusual.

By 'not given a new assignment' do you mean it wouldn't allow you to return to base?

Ah thanks Beery, that was the first time I had that instance (first time I was given the Marshalls assignment so that would explain it) as I've received a secondary assignment every time. Thanks for the quick reply. I haven't tried to return to base yet but I have no indication that it won't work.

Again, thanks for the GREAT mod.

[DiveMonkey]

Yep!...RFB is a kick ass ride!

Thanks Beery for continuing to improve and update RFB making SHIV a much better sim.
I'm looking forward to 1.25 to see what new improvements you and Egan have come up with.

[t0maz]

Maybe repeating mission is another no-dvd patch issue?

[flymar]

Nope. I had repeated missions with DVD. I never had a secondary assignment during mission.
I'm little annoyed with bugs like bathtub action in AA guns, ramming some little islands with TA, bright reflections on dark, cloudy night, flying torpedoes and torpedo trails, crew bug with the front deck gun and so on and so on...
The truth is I'm annoyed 'bout lack of time... One patrol a day is too darn little

[perisher]

Some more deck gun ROF info.

In 1942 HMS/M Unbroken engaged an Italian train with her 3" gun. 10 rounds were fired in 2 minutes, all were hits. Her skipper admitted that to hit first time was a fluke. The locomotive and most of the rolling stock were destroyed along with the overhead line equipment and power to the signalling equipment was cut.

The sea was calm and Unbroken was 900 yards offshore, which made the range to the railway 1000 yards. Unbroken had allowed two trains to pass unmolested but used their headlamps to gauge the range. The author states that star shell was available to illuminate had it been needed.

"U"-Class boats did not have gun towers.

See Unbroken by Alistair Mars

[Beery]

Originally Posted by perisher

Some more deck gun ROF info.

In 1942 HMS/M Unbroken engaged an Italian train with her 3" gun. 10 rounds were fired in 2 minutes...

5 rounds per minute is certainly possible if the timing starts after the gun is manned and prepared for action, or using a very highly trained crew with a gun that needs minimal preparation. The main problem is that such a ROF involves ready-use ammo and that rate of fire cannot be sustained for more than about 20 rounds. As we've discussed previously SH4 doesn't model a difference in reload times between ready-use ammo and the remaining ammo. Nor does SH4 model the time taken to man and prepare the gun. For RFB to model gunnery properly it must approximate these delays and factor them into the single reload speed that the game features.

For our uses, since SH4 starts firing as soon as we hit the 'man deck gun' and 'engage target' buttons, timing for real life gun engagements must start from the order being given to man and fire the deck gun. Plus, in order to get a reload rate we can transpose into SH4 the engagement must last well beyond the number of shells provided by ready-use ammo stores. If players are engaging targets above 100 tons (i.e. the vast majority of ships in the game) they're going to be using more than 20 rounds.

[Beery]

I've been examining the smaller Japanese merchants and I've found some interesting stuff:

All the Japanese fishing boats in the game are listed as being 24.7m long (80ft) and displacing 2 tons. Now I've seen rowing boats 4m long that displace more tonnage than that.

Clearly, if we view a small junk next to a large sampan and a fishing boat these are all very different in size and displacement.

So I'm going to measure these boats in the game and I'll try to approximate proper tonnage and length/width values for them. Since a 2-ton boat is about the size of a small rowing boat I seriously doubt that a small sampan or junk can be this small. I think they would have to be at least 20 tons and the large sampan would have to be 80 tons or more. As for the larger fishing boats they look like they're about 80ft in length and I've found similar-looking vessels online that displace about 140 tons.

Anyway, I'll work on this today and get the new values ready for the next RFB version.

[Beery]

Turns out a lot of the displacements are off by a lot. Elco torpedo boats are listed as 35 tons on the game when their actual displacement was around 50 tons. Anyway I'm not overly concerned about Allied boats - hopefully we won't be sinking too many friendlies anyway.

I've adjusted the game's Japanese fishing boats and sampans (which were all 2 tons, 25m long and 6.6m wide) as follows:

Small Sampan: 14m long, 3.5m wide, 20 tons.
Junk: 15m long, 4m wide, 25 tons.
Large Sampan: 23m long, 6m wide, 75 tons.
Small Fishing Boat: 25m long, 7.5m wide, 120 tons.
Small Sampan: 29m long, 8m wide, 140 tons.

I also found out that it's possible to add a "DisplacementVariation=" value to the cfg file for every type of ship in the game. This value will add a random amount of tonnage (up to the number specified) to the tonnage score the player is awarded for that type of ship. So I added this modifier to all the small boats, varying their tonnage by between 10 and 40 tons. This should add some nice variation to the tonnage we get in the game. Later I'll expand this to larger vessels.

[perisher]

Extract from U.S.S. TANG (SS 306), Report of Fourth War Patrol 31 July 1944 to 3 September. 1944.

This was a gun attack on a patrol yacht, 14 August 1944.

"1753 Surfaced to maintain contact and check all guns, then
closed
1832 to seven thousand yards and commenced firing. The
enemy was tenacious and wary, twisting and turning and
closing the range at every opportunity, and though he
replied only with apparent 20 mm. machine guns, he was on
in deflection and not far short with a range of 4500
yards, forcing us to haul out frequently.
It was impossible with his movements and the 4" rate
of fire to stay on for more than one or two hits, and only
eight sure hits were observed. These were beauts,
however, demolishing his deck house aft and exploding in
his side and upper works.
1926 With eighty-eight rounds expended and the enemy still
under control, perhaps from central station, proceeded to
the south for patrol on the following day."

I make that 88 rounds in 54 mins, an average ROF of 1.63 rounds per minute, with 10% accuracy.

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by perisher

Extract from U.S.S. TANG (SS 306), Report of Fourth War Patrol 31 July 1944 to 3 September. 1944.

This was a gun attack on a patrol yacht, 14 August 1944.

"1753 Surfaced to maintain contact and check all guns, then
closed
1832 to seven thousand yards and commenced firing. The
enemy was tenacious and wary, twisting and turning and
closing the range at every opportunity, and though he
replied only with apparent 20 mm. machine guns, he was on
in deflection and not far short with a range of 4500
yards, forcing us to haul out frequently.
It was impossible with his movements and the 4" rate
of fire to stay on for more than one or two hits, and only
eight sure hits were observed. These were beauts,
however, demolishing his deck house aft and exploding in
his side and upper works.
1926 With eighty-eight rounds expended and the enemy still
under control, perhaps from central station, proceeded to
the south for patrol on the following day."

I make that 88 rounds in 54 mins, an average ROF of 1.63 rounds per minute, with 10% accuracy.

If you let the AI control the deck gun, you'll get some pretty poor shooting, or at least that has been my experience when shooting from 2500 to 3500 yards. Well under 50%. I don't think it gets quite as low as 10%, but sometimes it seems that way.

I guess you found some historical evidence to let the AI man the deck gun

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by perisher

Extract from U.S.S. TANG (SS 306), Report of Fourth War Patrol 31 July 1944 to 3 September. 1944.

This was a gun attack on a patrol yacht, 14 August 1944.

"1753 Surfaced to maintain contact and check all guns, then
closed
1832 to seven thousand yards and commenced firing. The
enemy was tenacious and wary, twisting and turning and
closing the range at every opportunity, and though he
replied only with apparent 20 mm. machine guns, he was on
in deflection and not far short with a range of 4500
yards, forcing us to haul out frequently.
It was impossible with his movements and the 4" rate
of fire to stay on for more than one or two hits, and only
eight sure hits were observed. These were beauts,
however, demolishing his deck house aft and exploding in
his side and upper works.
1926 With eighty-eight rounds expended and the enemy still
under control, perhaps from central station, proceeded to
the south for patrol on the following day."

I make that 88 rounds in 54 mins, an average ROF of 1.63 rounds per minute, with 10% accuracy.

You are discounting the non firing time - "forcing us to haul out frequently. It was impossible with his movements and the 4" rate of fire to stay on for more than one or two hits,"

As I read it they had to move at least a half a dozen times to keep range advantage, and probably about a nm each time. If you think about it, this is a lot of downtime out of the 54 minutes, enough to impact ROF significantly.