I don't understand the sensors

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Pete

You really nailed that one! Escort behavior is hard-coded way too deep to be modded by an old pensioner like me! The only way to fix escort positions is to Script the convoys and place them correctly (which does work but is a tremendous amount of tedious tinkering). I wish there was a way to fix convoy positioning as well with 1000 meters between columns and 500-600 meters between ships in the same column.

It still makes me sigh...

I'm retired too. Yes, I looked into changing their positions long ago and it's a mind numbing job to do so.
Plus even if done, they still will do their silly, ahistorical tactic of completely leaving the convoy on a routine basis and sail off into the distance for a few minutes.
All one has to do for a successful attack is wait for them to do that, reload, do it again, etc., etc.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

But I also seem to recall that the escorts won't ping you without having a phone contact first (which is wrong, but anyway)

Based on my previous tests, it seems to me that the AI uses both (hydrophone + ASDIC) at the same time.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Based on my previous tests, it seems to me that the AI uses both (hydrophone + ASDIC) at the same time.

That would be news then as years ago iirc it was established no asdic until a phone contact.
Maybe things changed.

[Grumpy Pete]

After plying a couple more patrols while considering this thread, I can say you're both right. John is correct that the stock sensors never seemed to use active sonar unless a hydrophone contact had occurred first. That was my experience as well. However, extending the active sonar range seems to have changed that. Here is the proof.

After attacking a convoy, two escorts headed to my probable location. I was in a pretty good spot so I remained at periscope depth to make my escape easier (it's always easier to escape from an escort you can see and I play with disabled external view). I maintained slient running and there had been no indications I had been spotted. The escorts started doing circles and dropped no depth charges. Then one of them started to ping me from about 1600 meters. I was at 2 knots speed and it was my baffles so in the course of 10+ pings it never gained contact. I continued to pull away and on its next "lap" it pinged me four or five times again, failing to find me. After that I went and made a snack as I knew I was going to be clear when they gave up the chase. They never contacted me, never dropped any depth charges but still tried to acquire me using active... I had the same thing happen on my next patrol although I was at 100 meters and couldn't observe the escorts. However, while they pinged me, they never made contact or made any attacks.

I believe the escorts only use one of their sensors at a time and the hydrophone is their "run-home-to mama" default. However, with active sensor range increased, the sim seems to know it has 2 methods of making contact. The original ranges were so short that it didn't even try active on an undetected target. So--it appears that has changed. I really hadn't thought about it since I was trying to avoid "going under the hood" again and just have some fun actually playing the game rather than improve it.

For the record, I'm currently running the OneAlex Grey Wolves compilation and the only additional mod is my active sonar tweaks. Another thing to consider is that both of these cases happened in early '41 so the escort are probably usinfg Type 123 or 128 systems (I don't remember the dates systems become available). Later systems have similar ranges but better sensitivity.

I though about tweaking the passive ranges like John suggested but that puts my farther under the hood than I want go right now. I'm really just having fun playing the game right now after a significant hiatus.

Off topc: The carreer previous to the one I am playing now was the shortest in all the rediculously many hours I have played this game. I get on my new boat and was leaving the dock at Lorient when we came under air attack. We got straddled by 2 bombs which immediately destroyed the engine rooms. The boat sank with the loss of all hands before making the first turn to leave Lorient. I went and made a snack.

[John Pancoast]

Good stuff Pete thanks, and thanks for your work. I haven't played SH3 for quite a while now, but as dumb as the escorts are and as overly affective as the silent running is, I also just many times let the game run and went to do other things while escaping an attack, etc.
I wouldn't mess with the passive settings unless you want to drive yourself crazy; dog chasing it's tail scenario that ends up being a waste of time.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I also just many times let the game run and went to do other things while escaping an attack, etc.

Do try to include cleaning up after yourself Herr Kaleun!

[Grumpy Pete]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Do try to include cleaning up after yourself Herr Kaleun!

One of those rare instances where not flushing is an improvement.

[propbeanie]

... that looks more like someone did NOT follow instructions properly...

[Mister_M]

Try blinding the enemy hydrophone (set max range to 10 meters...), and you should still be detected by its ASDIC.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Try blinding the enemy hydrophone (set max range to 10 meters...), and you should still be detected by its ASDIC.

But you don't *hear* asdic pinging in such a case iirc? If not, it could just as easily be a bug, cheat, etc. doing the detection vs. asdic.

[Hooston]

I have had escorts start to ping me before I attack when running silent at 1 knot, although more often they sail past with no pings.

I think the ASDIC does have a detection threshold of its own that in GWX is usually masked by the more sensitive hydrophone detection. Which is the wrong way round and could be fixed. The logic for the ping sound seems to be when hydrophone has a contact and uboat in the ASDIC coverage OR uboat within a very tight ASDIC detection threshold (but not necessarily detected at all).
In real life the passive and active systems used the same sensor/operator and during a search it was swept in 5 degree steps, with a couple of seconds between pings down that azimuth, So the uboat would only hear a couple of pings every minute or so until the operator started tracking his target, and the hydrophone could indeed cue the ASDIC if the uboat was being very noisy.

So I think the game is not so bad, but GWX might benefit from some sensor tweaks. So many mods have messed with these parameters that it is hard to know what the status is. Bigger problems are the over precise depth settings found in GWX (NYGM does not seem so bad, but I can't work out why), and no loss of contact due to depth charges.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Hooston

I have had escorts start to ping me before I attack when running silent at 1 knot, although more often they sail past with no pings.

I think the ASDIC does have a detection threshold of its own that in GWX is usually masked by the more sensitive hydrophone detection. Which is the wrong way round and could be fixed. The logic for the ping sound seems to be when hydrophone has a contact and uboat in the ASDIC coverage OR uboat within a very tight ASDIC detection threshold (but not necessarily detected at all).
In real life the passive and active systems used the same sensor/operator and during a search it was swept in 5 degree steps, with a couple of seconds between pings down that azimuth, So the uboat would only hear a couple of pings every minute or so until the operator started tracking his target, and the hydrophone could indeed cue the ASDIC if the uboat was being very noisy.

So I think the game is not so bad, but GWX might benefit from some sensor tweaks. So many mods have messed with these parameters that it is hard to know what the status is. Bigger problems are the over precise depth settings found in GWX (NYGM does not seem so bad, but I can't work out why), and no loss of contact due to depth charges.

Add to that the 100% effective silent running. I don't mind the loss of contact due to depth charges as much, as the ai needs all the help it can get anyway.
Then there's the moonlight having no affect, convoy noise having no affect, etc., etc.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Pete

One of those rare instances where not flushing is an improvement.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

... that looks more like someone did NOT follow instructions properly...

Indeed!

Originally Posted by version 1

U-1206 was one of the late-war boats fitted with new deepwater high-pressure toilets which allowed them to be used while running at depth. Flushing these facilities was an extremely complicated procedure and special technicians were trained to operate them. Incorrectly opening valves in the wrong sequence could result in waste or seawater flowing back into the hull.[6]

On 14 April 1945, 24 days before the end of World War II in Europe, while U-1206 was cruising at a depth of 200 feet (61 m), eight nautical miles (15 km; 9.2 mi) off Peterhead, Scotland, misuse of the new toilet caused large amounts of seawater to flood the boat.According to the Commander's official report, while in the engine room helping to repair one of the diesel engines, he was informed that a malfunction involving the toilet caused a leak in the forward section. The leak flooded the submarine's batteries (located beneath the head) causing them to generate chlorine gas, leaving him with no alternative but to surface. Once surfaced, U-1206 was discovered and bombed by British patrols, forcing Schlitt to scuttle the submarine. One man had died of illness a day before the mishap,three men drowned in the heavy seas after abandoning the vessel and 46 were captured.

Originally Posted by version 2

Schlitt and his crew were just nine days into their maiden voyage on board U-1206 when a trip to the toilet went very badly wrong.
After failing to work out how to operate the flush mechanism, Captain Schlitt called for help. Unfortunately the engineer who came to his assistance accidentally turned the wrong valve, and the cabin began to fill up with a mixture of seawater and human waste. ATTN Onkel Neal: We'll need a another VIIC toilet-training video for Wolfpack??!!
The vile cocktail then leaked into the submarine’s battery compartment located directly below, causing a chemical reaction which began to release lethal amounts of chlorine gas.
Left with no other option, Captain Schlitt ordered the crew to blow the ballast tanks and head for the surface. The U-boat’s torpedoes were fired to shed extra weight and increase buoyancy.
But as U-1206 appeared from the depths, it was spotted by a Royal Air Force patrol who began to open fire. The crew scrambled for the dinghies, while Captain Schlitt ordered the U-boat to be scuttled and any secret equipment on board to be destroyed.

BOTTOM LINE: bad plumbing aboard a Uboat is invariably fatal....and that's "the straight poop"!

[Mister_M]

@ Aktungbby: Very interesting, but you're definitely off topic.

[Tigerzhunters]