Who Started World War II?

[Fahnenbohn]

From the same speech (see post #12) :

"My chief endeavor, however, has been to rid our relations with France of all trace of ill will and render them tolerable for both nations. I once set forth with the utmost clarity Germany's claims in this domain and have never gone back on that declaration. Return of the Saar territory was one demand which I regarded as an indispensable pre-condition of Franco-German understandings. After France herself had found a just solution of this problem, Germany had no further claims against France. No such claim exists any longer and no such claim shall ever be put forward. That is to say, I have refused even to mention the problem of Alsace-Lorraine not because I was forced to keep silent, but because this matter does not constitute a problem which could ever interfere with Franco-German relations. I accepted the decision made in 1919 and refused to consider ever embarking upon war for the sake of a question which, comparatively speaking, is of slight importance for Germany's vital interests, but which is certainly likely to involve every second generation in a deadly war fear. France realized this. It is impossible for any French statesman to get up and declare I have ever made any demands upon France the fulfillment of which would be incompatible with French honor or French interest. It is, however, true that instead of demands I have always expressed to France my desire to bury forever our ancient enmity and bring together these two nations, both of which have such glorious pasts. Among the German people, I have done my utmost to eradicate the idea of everlasting enmity and to inculcate in its place a respect for the great achievements of the French nation and for its history, just as every German soldier has the greatest respect for the feats of the French Army."

[Oberon]

Oh Great, another one of 'these' guys. We sure do pick them up.

Besides, WWII technically started in 1937 between Japan and China.

[Skybird]

Lesson of this topic: nobody had a right and should have dared to stand up against and resist the Nazi empire. It's all their fault.

Why taking the bait, guys? You know how it smells in here. Use your noses.

[Dowly]

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Why taking the bait, guys? You know how it smells in here. Use your noses.

Terrible arguments like this guy's are perfect practice for actual debates

[Sailor Steve]

This grew out of a comment made in the SH3 forums. I allowed it to stand because I want to see where it goes. I have my views I wanted to express, but since Jim is already involved I decided I needed to stay out and play referee.

I'll only say this once. If you have something to add, please feel free to do so. If you feel compelled to go beyond that, please just stay out of it. I want to see if it's possible to have a civil discussion about this.

[Betonov]

About France and Britain after WW1.
No one said rivals can't be friends

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I'll only say this once. If you have something to add, please feel free to do so. If you feel compelled to go beyond that, please just stay out of it. I want to see if it's possible to have a civil discussion about this.

I see. Apologies if I caused any problems.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I want to see if it's possible to have a civil discussion about this.

Yes, exactly. Me too !

[Cybermat47]

In my opinion, who started WWII doesn't matter as much as who took the most lives in it - and it's a reasonable assumption that it was the Nazis. 11000000 people are known to have died in the Holocaust alone.

But I have little difficulty in believing that Hitler started WWII. With the annexation of Austria and occupation of Czechoslovakia, it's obvious that he was aggressively expanding German territory.

[Oberon]

Alright, I'll bite, but I doubt this thread will go anywhere but down, it's not the first time we've been down a road like this.

And the English were the ennemies of this alliance, as they constantly show during the actions they led against the French fleet, and other facts. England was not the ally of France, but its rival.

England...or should I say Britain, and France were indeed rivals, until around 1904, when efforts were made by both sides to reduce the tensions between their respective empires as both were faced with the prospect of a rapidly industrialising Germany. The Franco-Prussian war had already ended in a very heavy defeat for France, and Britain had struggled during the Boer war and there was a fear in both nations that Germany was going to outpace both of them in regards to technology, weaponry and power projection and force.
If Britain and France were as much rivals as you seem to suggest they were then when Russia and Japan went to war in 1904 then Britain and France would have found themselves at war with each other due to France being allied to Russia and Britain allied to Japan.

To look at your other point, the actions of the Royal Navy against the French fleet, that is not a high point in Anglo-French relations, I will agree, however it was one isolated incident and I think due to poor diplomatic actions rather than malice. Contrast Mers-el-Kébir with the action at Alexandria where Admiral Cunningham successfully negotiated the disarmament of the French warships commanded by Admiral Godfroy. If there was an intended malice on the part of the British then these ships would have been taken by force or destroyed.
Besides, why would Britain want to give Germany such a propaganda coup? If you consider it in diplomatic terms it makes no sense to encourage the French people to look to Germany as a friend by purposefully targetting the French navy in malice.
To quote the Admiral in charge of the operation at Mers-el-Kébir, he considered it "...the biggest political blunder of modern times and will rouse the whole world against us...we all feel thoroughly ashamed..."

Now, as to who to assign the blame for 'World War II', that is a harder course of action because the victors of World War I certainly have their part to play in creating the conditions which would encourage the rise of the National Socialist German Workers Party, and the rather stupid partition of Danzig certainly didn't help matters, but this is something borne by hindsight and any attempt to rid Germany of her part in World War II is honestly an insult to those who died in the war.
Hitler could well have used diplomacy to fix his problems, he could have spent some of the goodwill he had created in Europe during his time in power to bring about a better solution to the Danzig problem, but his actions in Czechoslovakia turned European powers against him, despite their best attempts to seek some sort of avoidance to conflict.

Ultimately Hitler could have chosen not to persue Danzig, there was no immediate need to invade Poland, no-one was being massacred in Danzig, no one was threatening Germany with war unless she took the Danzig corridor, he could well have backed down and let Danzig slide. Heck, if he had then perhaps the Soviet Union would have invaded Poland later in the 1940s and we would have found Germany, France and the UK allied against the Soviet Union. It's something that some alternate history writers like to consider from time to time. Certainly France and the UK found themselves torn between the two evils of Fascist Germany and Italy and the Communist Soviet Union.
But no, Germany sought and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and Germany invaded Poland, and that resort to force of arms over diplomacy puts the immediate blame for the war that followed upon Germany. One can argue the threads that lead to that declaration of war can trace back to the First World War and its conclusion, but the final decision to plunge Europe into another major conflict was Germanys.

[Tchocky]

Someday I want to have the same positive outlook on life that allows Oberon to respond in such good faith.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Someday I want to have the same positive outlook on life that allows Oberon to respond in such good faith.

I don't even know where I get it from myself....It's probably the pills....

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

11000000 people are known to have died in the Holocaust alone.

That's absolutely wrong, but I don't have the right to talk about this subject on this forum.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

With the annexation of Austria and occupation of Czechoslovakia, it's obvious that he was aggressively expanding German territory.

By the Trianon and Saint Germain Treaty, the empire of Austria-Hungary is dismembered on behalf of the right of peoples to self-determination. Austria becomes an unsustainable state and requestes unification with Germany from March 1919 (on behalf of the right of peoples to self-determination). But this is denied against all logic.

A totally artificial state is created : Czechoslovakia. It should have been called Czecho-Germania (Czech = 47.2% / German = 23.4% / Slovak = 18.5%). These German minorities, called Sudeten Germans were concentrated in border regions with Germany and Austria and populated by 50% to 90% of Germans.

In March 1938, the annexation of Austria into the Reich is made (Anschluss), in accordance with the will of the immence majority of Austrians. Everywhere scenes of jubilation occur. This causes agitation of the Sudeten Germans who want their return to the motherland too. Facing this agitation, Britain sends Lord Runciman to investigate. He states in its report of October 7, 1938: "I consider that these districts border must be immediately transferred from Czechoslovakia to Germany." Again, this is only fair. The return of the Sudetenland to the Reich is also made in general jubilation.

On March 14, 1939, Slovakia declares its independence. The region of Bohemia and Moravia becomes a German protectorate. The artificial entity created by the victors in 1918 ceases to exist.

-> It's obvious that you don't know the subject at all !

F.

[Tchocky]

Yeah I guess the Sudetendeutsches Freikorps accidentally murdered Czech policemen and the orders they received from the Nazi regime were meant as jokes.

Take it elsewhere.