Iranian Submarine

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by fatty

So it makes sense for them to go all the way with SSKs. Whether they are radar invisible or whatever is obviously a huge stretch; that pointless boasting and sabre-rattling is just what Iran does. These are the rough beginnigs of a proprietary SSK program, and that is to be expected, but they'd be idiots not to invest heavily in diesel subs. Give them a couple of years and they will probably have made some interesting advancements.

So true. This is also the major reason why the USN is so heavily reinvesting in ASW capabilities again. Specifically, to defeat the SSK in littoral environments. And the other emphasis is mine-warfare autonomous vehicles for the Burke class destroyers.

[Chock]

As I hope you will see in Mariano's forthcoming paper on the San Luis, SSKs are a terrific force equilizer.

That's true, but you should also take into account that much of the San Luis mission woes were as a result of the lack of experience of her captain, Lt Cmdr Fernando Azcueta, and her crew, many of whom had been with the boat for less than a month. Her skipper's lack of experience led him to decide to make stand off attacks rather than to penetrate closer on his first attempt, and he fired at ships which were heading away from him, resulting in the torpedoes running out of range in the subsequent tailchase. It's true that he learned from experience quickly however, and got closer the second time he tried an attack, but he was, as it turned out, thwarted by the systems on the sub being incorrectly installed, the steering system having had its wires crossed by some dockyard clutz, which effectively made steering the torpedoes an impossibility, notwithstanding the fact that their guidance wires snapped on several occasions.

Azcueta was without doubt plucky and resourceful, but his lack of experience was a major factor in the lack of success. And when you think about that and compare the current US boats practising against diesel electirc subs and gaining experience, and contrast that with the Iranians inability to try similar practice versus nuclear boats with their diesels, then you have to think that experience, or the lack of it will be a limiting factor for the Iranian sub skippers, regardless of their enthusiasm for the task.

Training is a vital factor when the sh*t hits the fan, as that's when your conditioned responses and ability to act fast prove decisive.

Chock

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Chock

That's true, but you should also take into account that much of the San Luis mission woes were as a result of the lack of experience of her captain, Lt Cmdr Fernando Azcueta, and her crew, many of whom had been with the boat for less than a month. Her skipper's lack of experience led him to decide to make stand off attacks rather than to penetrate closer on his first attempt, and he fired at ships which were heading away from him, resulting in the torpedoes running out of range in the subsequent tailchase. It's true that he learned from experience quickly however, and got closer the second time he tried an attack, but he was, as it turned out, thwarted by the systems on the sub being incorrectly installed, the steering system having had its wires crossed by some dockyard clutz, which effectively made steering the torpedoes an impossibility, notwithstanding the fact that their guidance wires snapped on several occasions.

Azcueta was without doubt plucky and resourceful, but his lack of experience was a major factor in the lack of success. And when you think about that and compare the current US boats practising against diesel electirc subs and gaining experience, and contrast that with the Iranians inability to try similar practice versus nuclear boats with their diesels, then you have to think that experience, or the lack of it will be a limiting factor for the Iranian sub skippers, regardless of their enthusiasm for the task.

Training is a vital factor when the sh*t hits the fan, as that's when your conditioned responses and ability to act fast prove decisive.

Chock

A little bit of an overanalysis maybe. Sure she didn't sink anything, but Mariano suggested that the amount of RN resources directed into finding this broken down little bathtub of a submarine is pretty significant in itself. That's why she was "almost succesful" - no targets sunk, but her mere presence in the theatre caused some head aches for British brass.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Chock

I daresay it may not be as good as they claim, but underestimating your enemy and not treating them as a credible threat is one of the most basic tactical errors you can make. The US thought Pearl Harbor was too shallow to permit Japanese aircraft to drop air-launched torpedoes into, with the technology the Japs had, and we know what happened there.

Also do not underestimate the levels of education in Iran and their abilities where technological advancements are concerned. It might be a popular notion to regard them as Jihad following camel jockeys that struggle with clapped-out old Russian equipment and derivatives of it, but the truth is the Iranians are very highly educated and very sophisticated people, with a long tradition of innovation, particularly in nautical matters. The Astolabe, for example, is an Arabic invention; you might also want to note that the word, admiral, is an arabic word, meaning commander of the seas.

Chock

Well said, my friend.

As an Iranian who lived in Tehran and who fought during the Iran-Iraq War, I can honestly tell you that you must not underestimate my old countrymen. We Middle-Easterners can be slippery to get a grip on (both mentally and physically).

[Foxtrot]

The serb dude nailed F-117 with a vintage SAM missile.
and he eats F-117 cake every year in March :rotfl:

[TteFAboB]

How defended is the SSK's dock?

[Herr_Pete]

Dont the Germans have the most advanced submarine out at the moment, i read somehwere on this site they had the most technoloicaly advanced submarine?

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Herr_Pete

Dont the Germans have the most advanced submarine out at the moment, i read somehwere on this site they had the most technoloicaly advanced submarine?

I'm not sure, but there are a number of subs that could stand in this category. If you want to talk about packing the most new technology per square inch, combined with overall performance, I'm not so sure that the German's latest conventional subs would stand up to that. I do however think that these German subs have some of the most, if not the most innovative propulsion, and quieting measures ever built into a submarine. In their environment, they would be utterly difficult to detect and defeat. While the 212's 214 may be the most advanced in the category of conventional submarines, the Virginia and Astute's are not to be taken lightly by any means. There have been tremendous innovations built into them as well. Of course, they are nuclear subs, and could be taken into another category of submarine as their operations would be different that what the 212 would do.

I think it is truly hard to measure most advanced sub because of the difficulty in knowing what they can actually do in their classified stats. But all in all, I wouldn't be surprised if the German subs had the most innovations built into them, awarding them that honor.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

I'm not sure, but there are a number of subs that could stand in this category. If you want to talk about packing the most new technology per square inch, combined with overall performance, I'm not so sure that the German's latest conventional subs would stand up to that. I do however think that these German subs have some of the most, if not the most innovative propulsion, and quieting measures ever built into a submarine. In their environment, they would be utterly difficult to detect and defeat. While the 212's 214 may be the most advanced in the category of conventional submarines, the Virginia and Astute's are not to be taken lightly by any means. There have been tremendous innovations built into them as well. Of course, they are nuclear subs, and could be taken into another category of submarine as their operations would be different that what the 212 would do.

I think it is truly hard to measure most advanced sub because of the difficulty in knowing what they can actually do in their classified stats. But all in all, I wouldn't be surprised if the German subs had the most innovations built into them, awarding them that honor.

I would put the Swedish Gotland class beside that German type 212/214. Both are a class of their own currently, it seems to me. BTW, the boat the US navy has leased in order to train against it, is a Gotland class. After over one year, or is it even already two?, the Navy still sees the score to nil against it. If you are up against a Gotland or 212, you are most likely sitting on the loosing end of the deal.

Sweden is a top inventor and producer of military equipment. Often they produced a worldwide first in the past, and came up with ideas that were seen in the West just some years later.

[moose1am]

I agree with everything below but want to add some more.

Some were laughing at the Iranians for claiming that their sub could avoid Radar not sonar. But those who laugh need to remember the history of WWII submarine combat. It was not until the allies started using radar and catching German U Boats on the surface recharging their batteries at night that we started to turn the tide in the battle for the Atlantic. If not for radar we would have all been talking and singing in German or Japanese.

These new fuel cell powered submarines are a huge threat to the USA and our allies. And these type of submarine are going to help shut down the oil that's flowing out of the Persian Gulf if we are not careful.

Like Skybird said below: We can't find the Swedish sub in our war games. That scares the holly crap out of me.

Sometimes were are so full of ourselves and overconfident that it scares me. We need to stay vigilant and prepare for the worse case scenarios not cake walks.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Even more so since they will not try to chase a surface group, but in the narrow waters of the gulf or the straits can afford to wait in silence and let them come to them - No matter if surface group, tankers, or escorts.

An outdated type 209 has sunk 15 NATO vessels in southafrican exercises just weeks ago - already forgotten? And that was in the open ocean. It was reported that at no time it ever was detected while "killing" the complete NATO armada down to the last ship.

So one must not even refer to the Swedish sub being leased by the Navy to learn how kill it. that is in it's second year now, and they still don't have a clue, it seems. The Swedes say they Americans are desperate, and in over a year haven't found them one single time. they also said they could drive circles around the navy, and up and down the Mississippi without the navy being able to do anything about it. That sub may be an even more modern design, OK, but nevertheless - you get the message. It reads: competently handed diesel subs are an extremely dangerous opponent.

Don't talk your enemy strong. But also do not underestimate him. Especially when it comes to subs.

[bookworm_020]

The Persian Gulf is an ideal hunting ground for an SSK. It may not be able to run down a task force, but it can lie in wait for them, and if they're in the right position, can creep in to a task force an cause untold amounts of greif.

The U.S. has been found short dealing with convetional subs in the past (the Australian Collins class has been able to humble them many times at various RIMPAC exercisies) The U.S. has also drawn down alot of it's sub hunting skills for carriers (the S-3 Viking into retirment). If a shooting war starts and the subs have left there base beforehand they could cause many problems if not stopped quickly.

[Herr_Pete]

I have also read the Germans are relasing a new class which will have these "cells" no idea what they, are jst a quick look over. They are also apparantly unbelievably hard to detect so within the new few years I wouldnt be surprisde of the Germans were sporting the best sub around. but yet again they can go into categories so.

[AntEater]

You mean the Type 212A, which is allready in service.
The technology is available for export with the larger but simpler Type 214.
Basically, you have different ways of making a diesel submarine air independent:

- fuel cells
A fuel cell creates electricity by a reaction of hydrogen and oxygen.
This is used by HDW for Types 212A and 214 and apparently also a US company tries to build such a system for the spanish navy.
Advantages are that it is basically untracable (the result of the reaction is water), but as a disadvantage the electrical output is not that great and in direct mode you can only go a few knots. If you want to sprint, you have to recharge the batteries, either with the cells or with diesels.
Also it requires huge amounts of hydrogen, which means a quite dangerous refuelling process. As soon as it is refuelled, the risk is fairly small, as the cell is outside the pressure hull. No hydrogen ever enters the pressure hull. Also, a fuel cell uses no moving parts at all.
On the other hand, hydrogen is basically available everywhere.
It wouldnt suprise me if that system would be internationally adopted. A fuel cell can be build by high school students, the tricky thing is only to increase its size to such a point it can power a submarine.
Russia is reportedly working on a fuel cell submarine, and the US apparently tries the technology as well. Wouldnt suprise me if China and Iran acquire it as well.

- stirling engine
A stirling engine is basically a mechanical device that converts heat into motion. Old technology, almost older than the steam engine and as reliable.
Also a nice project for a high school physics class.
The disadvantage is that you need an external heat source to keep the machine moving. Kockums uses diesel fuel and Oxygen, but the system is less efficient than to run a diesel with the same amount of fuel, but more quiet. Of course that has the advantage that the AIP fuel is also the normal fuel.
The swedish Gotland class (the one the USN failed to detect) uses this system, the Australian Collins class (swedish design) is to be upgraded with it.

- MESMA
Basically a french modification of the old Walther engine of WW2 vintage, it is a turbine driven by Ethanol and Oxygen. In contrary to Walther's design, the turbine is used to charge batteries, not to directly drive the boat.
Used in Pakistani Agosta class submarines and offered for the Scorpene class export SSKs, but apparently the Spanish prefer a US build fuel cell for their Scorpenes.

Closed cycle diesels and Walther turbines were once used, but are no longer in service.

[swifty]

Iran does pose a major threat along with N. Korea. A naval war whit either country will be fought in the littoral area. Most of the current US Navy had been focused around a Blue Water Navy due to WWII and the Cold War. The pentagon and NAVSEA however have long seen this threat and have numerous programs to counter this threat. The Littoral Combat Ship or LCS is being built right now for this specific area of operation. The Virgina class sub has been equipped with many technologies the fight in shallow water. Sea TALON is a specifically to find and hunt the newer quitter subs.

There is not a whole lot a public information about Iran's military power and most of whit is out there is unconfirmed. There are reports that Iran is still flying F-14s. That impressive considering how much work it was taking the US to keep its fleet flying before decommission.

Here is some info about the Iranian Navy unsure creditable but does make for an interesting read.

www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread215234/pg1

The Ghadiar-Class

5. – Submarines
Iran has a rapidly expanding submarine fleet has at least three large conventional submarines, and two "mini-subs". Whilst many reports cite North Korean mini-sub technology as a key factor, the designs are essentially home grown.

5.1 – Ghadir class littorial submarine

Illustration by me

Number in service: 1 (some reports say 2)
Displacement (my estimate): 500 tons
Armament: Two torpedo tubes, probably 12”. 2, possibly 4 or 6, heavyweight torpedoes or mines.

Reportedly being mass produced, the first of this class, Ghadir, has been paraded for the press. Although this is generally described as a mini-submarine, it appears slightly larger and is probably better described as a littoral submarine similar in concept to the Italian Sauro class although significantly smaller.

Photo evidence suggests that it has two torpedo tubes in the bow which appear to be 21” allowing them to fire typical heavyweight torpedoes and more crucially, making them a viable platform for the infamous Shkval rocket torpedo. The Shkval has a range of 7km at an incredible speed of 200kts, about 5 times faster than a conventional torpedo. There is no doubt that Iran has rocket torpedoes but it is unknown how many of them or what platforms they will deploy them on. At this moment in time it seems more realistic that the Ghadir class will primarily carry conventional torpedoes.

Iranian test firing of a Shkval rocket torpedo

The many masts and aerials atop the submarine’s sail include a optical periscope (which looks very modern and appears to have night vision etc), a surface search radar and various communications aerials. This demonstrates that these are not crude or technologically backwards submarines and cannot be dismissed in the same way that most North Korean mini-submarines can.

Although there are no reports of Iran purchasing submarine launched anti-ship missiles but the potential is there. These small conventional submarines are well suited to the confined waters of the Gulf and pose a very credible threat to warships.

Iran's sub base is in a prime location right at the throat of the Gulf.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...&t=h&z=18&om=1

[gimpy117]

yeah... iran is playing a war of words, and just trying to make life hard for us by messing around with "new devlopments in tech" (like the enriched Urainium issue). theres no doubt that the sub is using modern tech (at least more modern than other irainian subs) but i also highly doubt it has sonar avoiding tech. probabbly it's a half truth, and, it has design to make it more stealthy than it's predecessors.

in a nutshell, iran is just screwing with us, heck maybe they don't even have it deployed in the gulf at all and want us to go on a wild goose chase. (maybe they don't even have it at all and it's just a dressed up older sub)