WHY God - is there no decent Sailing Ship war game?!?!

[bix]

as usual:
http://www.cityarts.com/signal/signal.zip

in this release -
basic ship command
improved sailing physics
improved navigation/gunnery coordination
grapple and board!!


okay don't get too excited "commanding" is very primitive, as is "grapple and board."

to command:

first, wait till yer orange ships are at least one square into the blue grid.

select a ship by left mouse down and "hold" for a moment. remember i intend to release on tablets, so i'm making input first for them. you should see some red squares below the ship, indicating it is selected. this was just a quick and dirty way for me to indicate selection. if you dont see the red squares, the ship is prolly not on the grid. i'll soon have a better representation of this. btw, once in manual helm, there is no going back - not until i have finished the menus...

once a ship is selected, select a location within the grid in the same manner, a small yellow square will appear. the ship will sail to that point and wait there. it will still engage enemies but it wont chase them. the currently selected ship will automatically sail to the currently selected location. basically, it follows the square.

i'll soon have follow friend/foe enabled. next release.

grapple and board is automatic when two opponents are within a short distance. the grapple for 30 seconds and release. multiple ships can grapple. i reckon in the final, once grappled, one ship or the other will become a prize, and will remain stationary for the rest of the scenario.

btw re experts, i was thinking mostly of you all!

to wit, i think this release will bring up several of design issues, particularly in command.

does the ship anchor at the point?
should the ship chase enemies once at the point, if they come in range?
if you don't want to grapple, how do you disengage.
how do you issue a command to anchor several ships in a line?
how can you tell which ships are manual and which auto?

etc...

best
bix

[troopie]

Okay, sorted, 7-Zip was misleading me while unziping; it was extracting 'signal/signal/' to 'signal/'

[troopie]

Originally Posted by bix

the action will surely drift downwind, away from the primary tactical area.

Would it not be that in a fleet to fleet engagement (which you are depicting here) the 'tactical area' would surely shift and follow the fleet's movement, most likely downwind I'd reackon?

In a port engagement scenario I can see your point, but wouldn't these only be carried out in favourable winds?

Very helpfull to be able to change wing direction, thx. However, running the scenario with a southerly imediately exposes some flaws in the AI sailing skills. The brown boats all imediatly start trying to beat upwind while the orange boats all start running. The result is a chaotic volley of bow chasers and the orange fleet over-running the brown.

Surely the brown would aim to enter some degree of reach and set up for broad sides?

As is (which is only a demo I know) I suspect the AI would overcome the player with gunnery accuracy but the player would run rings around the AI in regards to sailing ability. The AI seems to have no objective intent, while the player has the advantage of historical hindsight.

re: Ramblings;

Originally Posted by bix

i've worked in this industry for more than 20 years, and the problem, from my perspective as a mathematician, is the reluctance on the side of the "bean counters" to allow "unproven" aspects of game-play reaching the public. i have no fear in this regard. i could not care less if some 16 year old kid doesn't like my new physics. which is why this project (at this point) is truly an "indie" game. all decisions are mine to make, i'm the captain, and i, my crew is 100% loyal.

several years back i worked on a complex procedural human animation system, for almost a year, and only 1/10th of my work ever saw the light of day, because for some reason or another, the avatars were not "cool" enough. screw that! we are all awkward uncool individuals. if i were as cool as brad pitt, i would not be a mathematician, i'd be a friggin movie star.

and that is the problem. people want to play games where they can be brad pitt, they don't want games that make them face who they truly are.

Love your attitude to this! There's hope for us after all! Me, I'm definately uncool and very awkward. I rarely play 'video games' but ejoy sims cause it's all up you. Thats what I love about SH; It places you in a position where you are vulnerable. That's the sort of challange a like to get out of a game, you have to do your best with what you know or succumb, and the most important aspect; you have to learn!

re: new release;

Originally Posted by bix

btw re experts, i was thinking mostly of you all!

Not sure if this is a dig or a complement, but as regards myself, it's misdireceted either way, I'm certainly no expert on the subject and I hope I don't come across that way; my sailing experiance is limited and my historical knowledge merely derived from a spare-time interest in naval battles. (Ask me about mobile cranes sometime )

re: grappling; haven't had time to test this yet but will let u know.

Cheers.

[bix]

hi troopie!

i would reckon that a fleet action in open ocean would transpire wherever it happened to transpire (though some land goal was almost certainly in contest) in which case the tactical constriction that i intend to impose is not necessarily appropriate.

however, to me, the open ocean situation is less interesting, purely from a tactical/logical point of view - and in terms of a game i hope will be compelling beyond a connoisseur audience (though my long-term goals are very much focused on said connoisseur audience). indeed i hope to make connoisseurs of laymen, because i find the challenge of AoS representation in gaming THE crucial problem space. everything about AoS is the PERFECT computer game challenge, so much so that it boggles the mind that it has not been properly addressed. well, actually, it doesn't boggle the mind.

for very valid reasons, the dungeons & dragons paradigm has dominated the industry since day one. what is pac-man after all? indeed space invaders is a closer analog to a naval sim than pac-man, but pac-man is closer to d&d than space invaders is to aubrey. there are very concrete technological reasons why the first person shooter (in a tunnel) became the defacto paradigm for computer games.

re experts - no dig at all. my whole "knowledge" of the topic comes from fiction, i sadly have not read that much actual naval history, not to mention naval historical analysis (though i have read a fair bit about the peninsular war). i have sailed (very) small craft (and i'm building a small craft in my copious spare time) but i've never *really* sailed. i actually enlisted in the US navy when i was 16, but my father (who was a torpedoman on the uss plaice, 1943-45) countermanded that action. but i digress. the folks on this list provide invaluable insights into naval action and more important, their core desires from a sim depicting it.

but back to the topic at hand. perhaps fleet action is beyond scope, and this game should focus on small squadron action, simply because i want the land to be an important factor.

at this point, i have yet to define a proper, real, scenario, i'm thinking about it... right now the AI just bombards the most available target, tries not to run aground, and tries to position itself upwind. also at this point, i'm trying to establish clear mechanisms for ship control and command. to wit, the next release, prolly saturday afternoon, will have the first signal flags!

stay tuned...
bix










as open ocean fleet (or shall we say squadron)

[raymond6751]

bix, I'd say you are on the right track. The number of ships you now have in game is enough and play could not be improved on by adding more. If an admiral (player) cannot win with this many...he should head for port.

My reading of the AOS period highlights the goals of the fleets were to intercept, deny supply, deliver supply, deliver troops, and support shore actions. Blockades come in the fullfillment of the above.

Few major fleet engagements were so decisive that nations fell. Getting into position, with all of your ships, and keeping position while battling wind, current, tide, poor visibility for signals, and reacting to the enemy could not often be done perfectly.

The British wanted to close the enemy for major battle. The French mostly wanted to evade engagement in order to carry out their missions, such as the above listed. The Brits were better shots while the French were better organized.

My suggestion for campaign games is to keep the actual number of ships in an engagement to a maximum while other ships are refitting, en route, and elsewhere in theory. Losses can be made up from these following each engagement.

[tater]

I have not fallen off the earth, last week of school for kids, and many events I had not scheduled for have eaten up most evenings.

[troopie]

Originally Posted by tater

I have not fallen off the earth, last week of school for kids, and many events I had not scheduled for have eaten up most evenings.

Good to hear, I was worried you'd lost intrest. What's your background on the subject? You seem pretty clued up.

[bix]

all, as always great response, and no apologies for real life required!

here's some screens from the newly included signals! i have also tagged each ship with its internal id, useful for debugging, but i'll prolly represent overall effectiveness of both navigation and gunnery on a scale of 1-10.

the great thing about signal flags is they were designed to be legible at great distance, thus i need but a 12x12 pixel image to adequately display the flag. i could prolly get away with 8x8 but i'm an old guy who doesn't want to wear his glasses when playing a vid-game.

raymond, great suggestion regarding campaign play! certain inclusion in the "final."

i'll post the flag key and how i am interpreting the meaning, but this is my enum, based on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...e_signal_flags

SIGNAL_DELTA, //"Keep clear of me; I am maneuvering with difficulty."
SIGNAL_ECHO, //"I am altering my course to starboard."
SIGNAL_FOXTROT, //"I am disabled; communicate with me."
SIGNAL_INDIA, //"I am altering my course to larboard."
SIGNAL_JULIET, //"I am on fire and have dangerous cargo on board: keep well clear of me."
SIGNAL_KILO, //"I wish to communicate with you."
SIGNAL_LIMA, //"You should stop your vessel instantly."
SIGNAL_MIKE, //"My vessel is stopped and making no way through the water."
SIGNAL_SIERA, //"I am operating astern propulsion."
SIGNAL_VICTOR, //"I require assistance."







will post the build later today

best,
bix

[raymond6751]

Grappling, yup. Direction orders, yup. Wind changes, so-so.

I could not change the wind to NE or SE. It would jump to East, North, or South when I clicked on the in between legs.

Please, sir, when can I sink a ship?

[raymond6751]

I found an interesting site with the full text of the British Fighting Instructions: http://archive.org/stream/fightingin...5gut/16695.txt

These were intended to be the required actions when signals were not or could not be used.

Several admirals and captains were hung for not following these regs.

[bix]

sorry, due to my vector laziness which i'll address eventually. you need to click a bit clockwise from the point, the click "check area" starts FROM the point TO the next point. it was quick and dirty vector math. the correct way would be to center on the point, but the 0/180/360 points (in re the dot product between two vectors) was confusing me that evening, i was prolly post rum ration. i'll get to it.

re sinking a ship - hmm bloodthirsty are we?

soon, very very very very soon. i'm just now displaying navigation/gunnery effectiveness, which is essentially "hit points," and the cannonballs will soon start depleting those numbers in a most murderous fashion. and then, i basically have a game.

bix

[bix]

as promised, signal flags by the dog watch saturday.

here is the key, or "cheat sheet" which will show by default when you load the game. press the "K" key to toggle the key visibility.



and the primary document: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...e_signal_flags


i've used the basic meanings of the flags, slightly interpreted to the current/historical context. these are not command flags, they are ship status flags. i have other historical flags that are of a "command" nature. these will become a part of the command menu system, and will be added to each individual ship's log. can't wait to start on the "court martial" engine!!

i reckon pieter over at piratesahoy will have a clear advantage, 'cause he knows these flags by wrote.

note: for ships that you have not YET clicked (and subsequently set to a point to navigate to) will only display a flag when the ship is in irons, or she is grappled/boarded, ie, she may require your attention. this is a helpful means to identify which ships you command the helm, and which you don't. again once you take command, you have command for the duration of the scenario.

once you *have* selected a ship, she will inform you of her status. not all flag states have been implemented, just a bit more typing to do.

if you compare my chosen text to the wikipedia article, you see it is pretty straightforward interpretation. any suggestions regarding the exact text to use in the key, gratefully accepted. some of my 18th century "yo ho ho" is a little rusty.

i'm also showing "hit points" as a measure of gunnery and navigation efficiency - just not doing the damage yet. very very very soon. yes they will sink!

G10 is gunnery 1-10 (also minus 1-10)
N10 is navigation

i think the most direct measure of "sunk" is minus 10 in both G and N.
in a boarding situation, minus 5 and minus 5 decides. thus previous damage totally effects the success or failure of a grapple. maybe i throw is some bit of random, and yes eventually you will have rpg-style captain and crew modifiers.

the usual url: http://www.cityarts.com/signal/signal.zip

cracking on,
bix

[bix]

i just noticed i was promoted to "sailor man" - popeye??? hmmm.

which that i savored the seaman graphic muchly

[bix]

indeed there was a bona fide bug in the compass rose, only occurring in fullscreen mode, so it slipped through my tests. fixed in the next release.

oddly, the api was returning an incorrect Y mouse value, appx 20 pixels less than it should be, when in fullscreen mode. i posted a bug report to that forum.

thanks ray!

[vlagyimir]

Im keeping an eye out for War Thunder. Supposedly it will include Navy and if the same level of realism will be present at Warships control that we have with planes it could be fun.