Muslim uproar - (Merged)

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by monkee

same difference as christian and their fundamentalism and judaism vs zionism.

Not every muslims follow all the guidelines in the Quran.
The same way that not all christians would follow all Bible guidelines like:

Stoning fortune tellers to death
Death sentence for cursing one own's parents
Death sentence for adultery
Kill homosexuals
Kill non believers
etc...

Well said!
Yes, the Bible, Old Testament and New, prescribes some insane (by today's standards) rules and punishments for transgressions. Most Jews and Christians pay no attention to stuff like:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 -If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

That's a direct commandment from the Lord yet even the most Bible-as-literal-truth fundamental Christians ignore it. And my point: if any Christians did try to implement such a barbaric law, the rest of the Christians would oppose and condemn such behavior. They wouldn't be silent and then "outraged" when some non-Christian said such a law was evil.
The ME Muslims, I can understand them being "outraged" for everything, they're pretty ignorant. But the western world Muslims, they should not be so silent. As I said before, IMO, western/moderate Muslims should get their religious house in order and spare us their indignation.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

That's a direct commandment from the Lord yet even the most Bible-as-literal-truth fundamental Christians ignore it. And my point: if any Christians did try to implement such a barbaric law, the rest of the Christians would oppose and condemn such behavior. They wouldn't be silent and then "outraged" when some non-Christian said such a law was evil.
The ME Muslims, I can understand them being "outraged" for everything, they're pretty ignorant. But the western world Muslims, they should not be so silent. As I said before, IMO, western/moderate Muslims should get their religious house in order and spare us their indignation.

Well said.

[Immacolata]

Perhaps that is all the islamic religion needs. A sound theological overhaul to drag it into the 21st century, screaming and kicking. Awful lot of screaming and kickin' going on already. Just isn't well on the dragging side of things.

It would help if some of the oh-so-liberal-egalitarian european countries would create a modern theological faculty for islamic studies. Not just the dissection of ancient text but actual education of imams and theological study. Might even develop some new doctrines out of it. Problem is perhaps that today the imams are educated in countries that are not keen on that kind of debate.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Immacolata

Perhaps that is all the islamic religion needs. A sound theological overhaul to drag it into the 21st century, screaming and kicking. Awful lot of screaming and kickin' going on already. Just isn't well on the dragging side of things.

It would help if some of the oh-so-liberal-egalitarian european countries would create a modern theological faculty for islamic studies. Not just the dissection of ancient text but actual education of imams and theological study. Might even develop some new doctrines out of it. Problem is perhaps that today the imams are educated in countries that are not keen on that kind of debate.

We have such academies in Germany. As far as I know, all of them are rated as extremely hostile towards the constitution, our Bundesverfassungsschutz reports year for year. they are under constant obervations, but demands of the BVS to shut them down for the BVS has things no longer under control, are ignored by politicians. Most famous one is the Saudi-founded king Fahd-academy in Bonn. BVS lists it as a centre of terror-breeding.

See my longer remarks here that adress that problem, too:
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/DialogueWithIslam.rtf

You cannot squeeze out of Islamic ideology what it does not include, in any way or another. That's why educating imams in Europe will not work (it is the old idea of Europe'S left and Eurocrats to create an Euro-Islam by that). But that is feeding the beast with your own hand, and literally so. What would the church's religion be withoiut Jesus? No new testament, only the old one. No christianity therefore, just that old hack-'n-slay-stories of the OT. It would effectviely be where Islam has been and still is today thorughout all the last 13 centuries. Problem is - Islam does not hold those potentials like other religions. It stagnated, it had no one coming after Muhammad. no parallelfigure to jesus. Only the old dogma, and stagnation. No reformation. no enlightenment. no dispute, only the riigid sticking to the reamrks of Muhammad, and that is all. Squeeze it as you want, you will not get much more out of it, no matter how many European academies you found.As far as I do have red information about several figures in Islamic history that had shown up with more liberal thiughts, and questions to Islam, all of these fiugures were not depending on the quran, but had stepped beyond it. They had left it behind in a way. And most payed with their freedom and/or their lifes with that. None was able to found a tradition that ever developed any signifoicant influence in the islamic world and changed the going of Islamic history.

That we in Germany is under pressure by Turkey to accept Turkish teachers and Imams in Germany, and Turkish language for educating, and that we do not state-control this process and shall not allow it being done by state-controlled Imams indicates that the reality is shifting towards exactly the opposite direction of what you wished for. I bet it is the same in all other European countries. Just look wherew Britain is standing today: a representiave survey showed just weeks ago that one third of Britiosh muslims would like to see sharia implemented, and excuse violance and terror acts if it helps to push islam in Britan and the West. the quote is even higher amongst the young ones. The British are fighting a lost battle, they were tolerant and reasonable for too long. One could also put it into other words: they were too arrogant for too lo0ng, assuming that their civilized superiority would be enough to tame Islam and domesticate it. Now the beast has escaped it's box, and grows stronger and stronger. Good luck, Britain. Luck will not help you, but such a phrase is considered to be well-meaning and polite when parting.

[Immacolata]

Ah, perhaps the rub is that your imam school is founded by Saudi people. They are amongst the most pig-headed and orthodox. I think that was a mistake. No the education should be part of the established european tradition of the university. That is how our vicars and priests have been educated for near a millennium now. Not involve dogmatists from the middle east. It was possible to squeeze jesus into judaism to found christianity, afterall.

But perhaps you are right. Where I live there isn't much leeway for muslims right now, and there is talk about evicting more or less all of the imams.

[Skybird]

It's cooking on.

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/15/1037631.html

2nd chairman of Turkish governmental party compared the pope to Hitler and Mussolini, saying he would be remembered by history as an equally evil figure. - Who is it now needing to excuse himself?

And Chameni from Iran said it is to be regretted that Christianity now is governed by such a shameless person that does not understand Islam (of course, we all misunderstand poor well-meaning islam, Mr. Chameni, we are just stupid, TV-drunken westerners, you know) and "unfortunately has offended it." (how new. How original. Next!) "Muslim have reacted to it and will keep on reacting." - Well, you infantile worthless full-time-sucker - unfortunately your stupid mindset and that of all the other infantile useless full-time-suckers in your muslim world are offending my intelligence and reason day in day out, week after week months after months, year after year. I have reacted to it, and will keep on reacting to it: not by stabbing your medieval-dressed imams on the streets, like you do with christian priests, and not by sending chrisztian militias to massacrate Muslim villagers, like you do, or telling lies aboiut history, like you do, but by brandmarking you as the aggressive, sly and backwardly primitive ape-men that you are.

What has the pope done? He illustrated that religion shall never be an excuse for violance, and shall not be propagated and spread by the use of violance, and that the use of violance to acchieve this necessarily is a violation of God's wishes himself. Judging by their modest and reasonable reactions, Muslims all over the world seem to have a problem with agreeing to that.

From Egypt their is a demand to the Muslim world, to threaten to brake all relations with the Vatican if the Pope does not apologize in person, and in public. - Well, all I can say: couldn't get much better than that! We should set up a petition encouraging to brake all ties. what, of course, they will never do - the conquest of the West is more important.

[mr chris]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It's cooking on.

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/15/1037631.html

2nd chairman of Turkish governmental party compared the pope to Hitler and Mussolini, saying he would be remembered by history as an equally evil figure. - Who is it now needing to excuse himself?

And Chameni from Iran said it is to be regretted that Christianity now is governed by such a shameless person that does not understand Islam (of course, we all misunderstand poor well-meaning islam, Mr. Chameni, we are just stupid, TV-drunken westerners, you know) and "unfortunately has offended it." (how new. How original. Next!) "Muslim have reacted to it and will keep on reacting." - Well, you infantile worthless full-time-sucker - unfortunately your stupid mindset and that of all the other infantile useless full-time-suckers in your muslim world are offending my intelligence and reason day in day out, week after week months after months, year after year. I have reacted to it, and will keep on reacting to it: not by stabbing your medieval-dressed imams on the streets, like you do with christian priests, and not by sending chrisztian militias to massacrate Muslim villagers, like you do, or telling lies aboiut history, like you do, but by brandmarking you as the aggressive, sly and backwardly primitive ape-men that you are.

What has the pope done? He illustrated that religion shall never be an excuse for violance, and shall not be propagated and spread by the use of violance, and that the use of violance to acchieve this necessarily is a violation of God's wishes himself. Judging by their modest and reasonable reactions, Muslims all over the world seem to have a problem with agreeing to that.

From Egypt their is a demand to the Muslim world, to threaten to brake all relations with the Vatican if the Pope does not apologize in person, and in public. - Well, all I can say: couldn't get much better than that! We should set up a petition encouraging to brake all ties. what, of course, they will never do - the conquest of the West is more important.

Spot on Skybird Could not have summed it up better myself.
Why should the pope say sorry, They have never said sorry for anything ever.
They just keep on moning thinking the world owes them a favor

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by Skybird

What has the pope done? He illustrated that religion shall never be an excuse for violance, and shall not be propagated and spread by the use of violance, and that the use of violance to acchieve this necessarily is a violation of God's wishes himself.

Why didn´t he use the history of his own church to illustrate that? There would have been more than enough good examples, he didn´t have to bring Islam into it.