Coming up: Shortest and least deadly school shooting in history

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

As long as you're cool with being number 2 in the nation for gun violence, then okay, by all mean arm everybody.

Silliness.

you can manipulate the numbers as you wish...

I'll do manipulating of my own.

here:

if you look at it as gun deaths as a percentage of ALL murders per state...

Texas doesnt even rank in the top 20

or how about the rate of assaults committed by firearms...

Texas doesnt even rank in the top 10

Fire arms murder rate?

again Texas doesnt even place in the top 20 a good 15 spots below Pennsylvania

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And if we had floors that we could electrify, we could have cooked the intruder in his own juices.

That is damn brilliant and I'm betting fun to watch!

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And if we had floors that we could electrify, we could have cooked the intruder in his own juices.

The goal is to prevent the deaths in the first place, which means stopping these types of people at the door. Once the shooting starts, children are going to die and we have already failed, regardless of how many Dirty Harrys we have around. This is what exasperates me with this arm everybody argument. It is not only a poor answer, it is a lazy one too.

I agree with stopping them at the door, but the first line of defense shouldnt be the only line of defense

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

That is damn brilliant and I'm betting fun to watch!

Good post. Good post.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

I agree with stopping them at the door, but the first line of defense shouldnt be the only line of defense

We have that. Again, the lockdown saved the lives of every other student in that building. The problem was that the shooter got inside if the first place without triggering said lockdown. How did he do that? How can we stop that? Those are where our attention should be directed, not at this concealed carry red herring.

[GoldenRivet]

i think architecturally speaking schools tend to be too "open"

there was a high school that opened around here a few years ago... there are three points of entry by road each of which are gated with a guard present, the school is surrounded by a fence i would wager is at least 10 feet high, and beyond the fence is at least 200 yards of open pasture all around the entire school.

short of emergency exits there are only a couple of primary entrances to the entire school and all of the class rooms must be entered from within the school.

at first i thought "how the hell would i have ever skipped school here? this is brilliant!"

then i got to thinking, wow, some nut job would have a hard time getting into this place easily.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

We have that. Again, the lockdown saved the lives of every other student in that building. The problem was that the shooter got inside if the first place without triggering said lockdown. How did he do that? How can we stop that? Those are where our attention should be directed, not at this concealed carry red herring.

My kids school have a camera in every hallway. The campus is patrolled by a armed officer. The outer doors are locked from getting in but not out. The campus is 6 building(it's like a mini college). There are fences that surround the campus. It is nice fencing and does not look like a prison but effective fencing to impede possible jumpers. Every plan is not fool proof. At lease there is some plan.

Arming the teachers huh?
Well lets see how long it takes until we read about a teacher shooting half his class...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And if we had floors that we could electrify, we could have cooked the intruder in his own juices.

My statement was relevant. Yours is not.

The goal is to prevent the deaths in the first place, which means stopping these types of people at the door.

I completely agree. The real problem is to stop the bad people. It would be nice if we could stop the bad people from ever getting guns. But we can't. And taking guns away from the good people, which seems to be the other sides only answer, won't work either.

Once the shooting starts, children are going to die and we have already failed, regardless of how many Dirty Harrys we have around. This is what exasperates me with this arm everybody argument.

True, but this part of the discussion is about what do once we've failed and the shooting starts. Close our eyes and pray the bad guy goes away. Wait for the police to arrive? Or maybe do something about it now.

It is not only a poor answer, it is a lazy one too.

No, it is neither. It's a backup plan, an answer for what to do once the shooting starts. That you disagree with it is fine. That you think it is a bad idea is also fine. Is it truly a bad idea? We won't know that until the next time the shooting starts.

People had this same discussion when the nutcase drove his pickup truck through the window of the diner in Killeen, Texas, and started shooting people. John Walsh got the shock of his life when he gathered the survivors together and asked what they though could have been done. One woman said "I wish I hadn't left my gun in the truck." The others all agreed. People said that was the wrong attituded, but when two armed men robbed a diner in Anniston, Alabama, and tried to lock everybody in the freezer, one of the patrons pulled his gun and shot them both.

So it's not a bad idea, or a lazy one. It's just one idea of what to do once the shooting starts.

You can argue, and Tribesman can ridicule, but we won't know if it's a good idea or a bad one until it actually happens. Nobody wants that, but sooner or later it will. Then we'll see.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Arming the teachers huh?
Well lets see how long it takes until we read about a teacher shooting half his class...

Dont worry, they didnt just give old Mrs. Jenkins a Texas Department of Education Issue Taurus Judge and say "shoot bad guys iffin any of em show up causin trouble on this here place of learnin'."

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Arming the teachers huh?
Well lets see how long it takes until we read about a teacher shooting half his class...

A teacher can do that now. He (or she) can sneak a gun into a class as easily as anybody else. It's very very rare that someone who has gone to the trouble of taking the training to get a CCP is the person who does something like this.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

A teacher can do that now. He (or she) can sneak a gun into a class as easily as anybody else. It's very very rare that someone who has gone to the trouble of taking the training to get a CCP is the person who does something like this.

or in the case of FFDOs gone through psychological eval and gone through at their own expense annual safety training etc.

nail head... meet hammer.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Arming the teachers huh?
Well lets see how long it takes until we read about a teacher shooting half his class...

Getting approved to teach in a public school is a bit more than just an interview. There is a 4 step process to gain employment in the school systems here in MD. Background check, interview, testing, fingerprinting and extensive calls to references. Not everyone is approved.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

ask the neighbors of this kid and his mother up in Sandy Hook... you ever really know your neighbor?

the guy next door to me could be just brimming over first thing tomorrow morning with enough rage to gun down mall patrons. I wouldnt know

I say arm the teachers that wish to be armed... of all the teachers i have known in my life as a student, and just known personally, i have known them to be trustworthy responsible people.

if just one of the sandy hook teachers had a firearm, who knows? this entire tragedy could have been prevented or the death toll greatly reduced.

all i know for sure is if i were going to send my kid off to public school first thing on a monday morning, i'd feel better if the teacher had a colt .45 under his coat

sad we live in such a time where someone would feel that way, but we do.

I would not prefer any/all teachers to be carrying, but I am 100% in favor of training principals and APs and issuing them emergency shotgun, in a secure place in their office. At least until this craze passes.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

My statement was relevant. Yours is not.

No, the point was extreemly relevant. You just don't like where the relevance is going. It does, however address everything else you've stated, so I will go through it.

There are any number of lethal ways that we could put down an intruder once he is in the classroom. However, once he is in the classroom, it is too late; people will die. Since the object is to prevent these shootings in the first place, prevent the mental anguish to the student and keep the classroom as a safe environment where the student (especially the young student) is comfortable and able to learn, bullets flying in the classroom, electric floors in the classroom, brains on the wall in the classroom, et al, are a failure. Prevention is the key, and that is not prevention. Of course, mental health services and the like must be examined, but that is beyond the scope of a school district and it's employees. What has to happen is a reexaminiation of security procedures. Cameras are a must now. Every school I worked at had cameras at the main entrance, but did not have them in the halls as they are for AVG. That is a must now. Once the lockdown is sounded, those children are safe. Schools must work on their methods of determining when the lockdown should sound. As I had stated in another thread, every elementary school I ever visited had a door that was unlocked. Everyone knew how to get in. That has to stop.