SR-71

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Even still wouldn't their IR targetting systems be ineffective because
a) IR missiles have a lot shorter range then radar guided ones

You thinking like an American! The Russians made long range IR guided missiles. The R-40TD (AA-6 'Acrid') for one, the R-27 (AA-10 'Alamo') also had IR variants.

b) The IR trackers were shorter ranged then a regular radar? More for up close and personnal fights (so to speak).

Against a fighter yes, the SR-71 was huge and left a large heat wake behind it. GCI Radars could give the location but onboard Radars have to deal with jamming and the aircraft's stealthyness (smaller aircraft radars are easier to spoof). IR systems basically gives the pilot an additional sensor that can't be jammed. Also remember how high the SR-71 flew, heat transmitted near the edge of space goes a lot farther than at ground level.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

You thinking like an American! The Russians made long range IR guided missiles. The R-40TD (AA-6 'Acrid') for one, the R-27 (AA-10 'Alamo') also had IR variants.


Against a fighter yes, the SR-71 was huge and left a large heat wake behind it. GCI Radars could give the location but onboard Radars have to deal with jamming and the aircraft's stealthyness (smaller aircraft radars are easier to spoof). IR systems basically gives the pilot an additional sensor that can't be jammed. Also remember how high the SR-71 flew, heat transmitted near the edge of space goes a lot farther than at ground level.

D'oh! Forgot about the AA-10 IR variant...

Aah well. Still considering I'd be a lot more worried if something like a MiG-31 were after me rather then a MiG-29 or Su-27/variant.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Krauter

D'oh! Forgot about the AA-10 IR variant...

Aah well. Still considering I'd be a lot more worried if something like a MiG-31 were after me rather then a MiG-29 or Su-27/variant.

MiG-29 yea, but the Su-27 was a very good interceptor. It didn't have the performance of the MiG-31 but it was still quite good; really close to a Soviet F-14 short of the missiles.

Oh the MiG-31 has an IR sight too.

[Stealhead]

Yeah you have to hand it to the Soviets sometimes they actually did come up with some pretty clever counters the long range IR missiles being one of them and a pretty clever one at that seeing as it is very hard to hide your heat signature from a good IR sensor.They are so sensitive that they can even acquire a lock from the heat generated by the friction of the air frame alone of course that would be at closer range.Also I image that modern IR guided missiles are much "smarter" and harder to fool with flares.That means in theory a good IR system and missile has a good chance against even a stealth(to radar) aircraft even they generate some friction in flight on the air frame.

Some western fighters are starting to mount similar sensors as well the Grippen can be mounted with one.The Soviet/Russian ones also are not just used for locking onto a target they can be used to scan the sky ahead and then the pilot can either fire an IR guided or he may choose to fire a radar guided missile at the target when he gets close allowing the target less time to react to the alert and subsequent launch of of a radar guided missile for some time the Soviets had a policy of firing one radar and one IR guided missile at a target to increase the odds of a hit of course that was with older missile technology not the better systems that started entering service in the late 70s.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Also I image that modern IR guided missiles are much "smarter" and harder to fool with flares.

The latest thing is a pod you tow behind a fighter that functions like a nixie decoy sending radar signals back to the incoming missile.

I would not be surprised if we see an IR source generating version soon. Maybe a omnidirectional laser in the IR spectrum, sort of like the disco light jammer on the Apache.

[Stealhead]

Classic warfare one side makes a better weapon the other makes a counter to that weapon and then a better weapon comes along.You have bullets and you have armor and no weapon or defense is perfect there is always some trade off it seems.

Sometimes I sit and wonder the first tribe that had atlatls they must have really dominated early warfare and think what the first tribe that invited the bow and arrow even better.Some theorize that at some point in time Cro Magnons and Neanderthals surely entered conflict over resources and that the Neanderthals lost out because they where a little slower in developing technology that Cro Magnons already had developed they lacked any projectile weapons and that made hunting much more dangerous to them because they had to get close enough to the prey that it could injure them while Cro Magnons just popped the prey with some atlatl arrows and let it bleed out Cro Magnon superior hunting gear also meant superior weaponry.Those poor Neanderthals.

[gimpy117]

My class at WMU too a tour of the Air zoo here in Kalamazoo and saw the SR-71B they have. it's an awesome Aircraft to behold. the crown jewel of the collection. touching it is an experience.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

sort of like the disco light jammer on the Apache.

Haven't heard anyone mention the disco system on a 64 in forever! Makes me miss working on em.

I am suprised that countermeasure systems are not becoming more "active" - with the ability to generate single frequency laser light at high output in fairly small spaces - it must only be a matter of time before a countermeasure system start shooting down enemy missiles.

Then "stealth" will be more about what you shoot at someone - instead of about what your shooting from.

I could see something like a B-52 gutted and having a system put in to make it purely a defensive aircraft -lasering enemy missiles out of the sky.

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I could see something like a B-52 gutted and having a system put in to make it purely a defensive aircraft -lasering enemy missiles out of the sky.

Right company, wrong aircraft.

YAL-1

[MH]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Some western fighters are starting to mount similar sensors as well the Grippen can be mounted with one.The Soviet/Russian ones also are not just used for locking onto a target they can be used to scan the sky ahead and then the pilot can either fire an IR guided or he may choose to fire a radar guided missile at the target when he gets close allowing the target less time to react to the alert and subsequent launch of of a radar guided missile for some time the Soviets had a policy of firing one radar and one IR guided missile at a target to increase the odds of a hit of course that was with older missile technology not the better systems that started entering service in the late 70s.

Actually most moder EU fighters are equipped with some sort of irst built in like Typhoon for example.
In some newer US platforms it is standard equipment as well, in particular stealth ones together with advanced radars and ecm.