target speed: the eighty-ten method

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by greyrider

if i cant hold it constant, then ill know i havent got a 10 degree aob, then i make a decision, on how i can keep it constant.

Greyrider thinks if he can hold the bearing constant then the target MUST be at a 10º AoB. This is so wrong it invalidates 1810 all by itself.

Originally Posted by greyrider

it would take a small book to say what to do, how to turn, i cant tell you how for every angle targets come at the sub, and how your going to attack it, theres just to many ways, you should know this.

Then why are there a couple of dozen different valid methods in the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread, every one of which is much smaller than a "small book," every one of which tells you how to deal with how to attack all targets, have complete instructions with no missing steps and can be executed successfully by anyone with the desire to follow the instructions? Only a minority of them are mine, by the way and I hope people learn all of them.

Originally Posted by greyrider

the tread was poisoned from the begining,

Finally you're onto something. The thread was poisoned by an invalid 8010 procedure with badly written and incomplete instructions. It was poisoned by an author who had no intention of communicating instructions, only boasting of empty achievements: the very definition of a fool.

Originally Posted by greyrider

someone can show you how to shoot a rifle, but until you put it in your hand, and try it yourself, you will never know what its like, and all the explanations in the world wont help you, you have to take it and shoot it to know what its like, 8010 is no different.

You of all people know that there are many complete and effective instructional programs on how to shoot a rifle. And you know that just about anyone can be taught to handle a gun with proficiency. You also know that the instructor does not waste your time just bragging about his own impossible shots, he teaches you to shoot well. Many of his students end up shooting better than he does because being the best shot in the world is not what instruction is all about. Instruction is about analyzing each and every step to the completion of a task, refining that down to a set of small, necessary and sufficient steps which can be easily learned and executed and then drilling the students until they can execute each of those steps perfectly, in order, under great mental stress and possible physical danger. The success of the process is not determined on how well the instructor shoots. We could give a rip about that. The success of the teaching process is judged by how well the STUDENTS can shoot! It's amazing that you actually went through that process and never understood what was happening! This is proof that proper instruction works on just about anyone, regardless of ability. Using the gun example perfectly proves my point. Thank you!

Now, carefully diagram, analyze and understand each phrase of the sentence in red and maybe you'd better go back to the beginning and do some actual communication based on a sincere desire to contribute to the knowledge of others, and increasing your own knowledge as well. A mark of an excellent instructor is that he invariably ends up learning more from his students than they do from him.

At this point, your students don't know how to execute 8010. Not one can determine target course from your instructions. Not one can determine target speed from your instructions. You fail.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...
A mark of an excellent instructor is that he invariably ends up learning more from his students than they do from him.
...

Sooooo true!


.

[Armistead]

I learned how to shoot a rifle at age 8, at a..er much older age I couldn't learn 8010.

Smart people here probably saw the failures of 8010 from the start, I honetly gave several tries and saw the first failure, none of my targets came at me to use the setup. I had to run on the surface tracking to put myself in position, by then I had course, speed, basic AOB, so if I had all this info to start with, I asked what good is 8010. Your basic reply was there may be a time all my equipment could be destroyed. Still, I had to surface track to put myself in position and my binocs always work.

It then seemed useless for anything but singles. Turned out even in position you would have to let every fast TF just go by, because you would have to use flank speed to try to hold a bearing and couldn't..so attacking TF's was out.

Why am I doing this again.... You know it doesn't work or is so limited that no one would use it. I tried to learn this....and couldn't.

Don't say no one tried...I did, doesn't work. Even if it did it would be limiting.

People want methods that are fast and accurate, not limiting and long...above all they should work.

[Rockin Robbins]

Here's how legitimate teaching works. Notice in this thread starting at this post where aaronblood jumps into jerm138's discussion on passive sonar tracking. I'll let you read it for yourself to learn how someone responds when he really seeks to communicate the truth. At one point to make sure they understand each other correctly arronblood and jerm138 are actually arguing the other guy's position! The only thing important to them is that they don't accidentally mislead people who want to try the ideas out. Salute to both of them! Aaronblood has jumped into my threads to set me straight too and every time I've come out wiser, my materials sharper and with more people practicing the techniques because the explanations are easier to understand.

Now apply that test to greyrider. Fail.

[WernherVonTrapp]

[greyrider]

here is whats left of your target,
any questions?



By null at 2010-09-16

i know rr, and all you others, i suck, you suck to!

[razark]

Originally Posted by greyrider

here is whats left of your target,
any questions?

How does putting the target at a constant 80 degree bearing prove its a 10 degree AoB, and not any of the other possible AoBs that also keep the target at a constant 80 degree bearing?

You know, the same question we've been asking?

[tater]

Originally Posted by greyrider

here is whats left of your target,
any questions?



By null at 2010-09-16

i know rr, and all you others, i suck, you suck to!

If you can hold the target on any constant bearing (closing) you'll get a shot. That picture proves nothing at all.

You have continuously told us that if it is possible to hold a contact on 080, THEN the AOB is 10. This is patent nonsense.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by greyrider

here is whats left of your target,
any questions?

i know rr, and all you others, i suck, you suck to!

Best troll ever!

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by greyrider

here is whats left of your target,
any questions?



By null at 2010-09-16

i know rr, and all you others, i suck, you suck to!

Uhm, where is the rest of the video we were promised? This is just one frame! An explosion proves nothing. It says nothing about how you did it. For all we know you could have gun-shelled it.

[Armistead]

He post a picture of a ship shot with a deckgun, not even torps and this proves what.....

[greyrider]

The only thing I learned from my "students", is the whine and cheese! "I can’t do it, i can’t do it, snivels, bad greyrider, and you’re a bad man."
You make my flesh crawl!

There were no instructions in the fire control manual for me either, but I got the job done!

so I have changed course, all movies at u-tube, all missions at file front, all pics from imageshack have been deleted, there is nothing left.

I look at it this way, all I needed was to see the formula and diagram from the fire control manual, with a little thought on my part to make it work,
If that was good enough for me, then its good enough for you, you get no more help from me, your on your on, no one helped me
understand, I had the skill to do it, and I did, no excuses.

Im one up on you! Laughing!

You don’t have the skill, that’s the bottom line, all you tinkerbells and candy ass pussies can do is whine, the only nursery I ever loved was my daughters.
You want to turn subsim into a nursery; this is where I get off! I won’t be back! The tread dies now; there was nothing but the walking dead in here anyway.

I don’t care anymore.


you that watched HMS venturer, saw the greatest submarine shot of ww2, yet not even a whimper or a peep from you about it, nothing!

No questions! How did he do it? That was awesome! Woot! nothing, no curiosity, just a bunch of pussies running your mouths about not be instructed properly,
So if you couldn’t give captain laudery credit, how could I expect anything less? And if you had any brain to think, it’s pretty obvious how he did it,
And I think I know how! I might make that mission, but if I do, I won’t be sending it up for you to try it, you’ll know why!
You can stay in your comfort zone, whatever it is,
That’s where amateurs belong, with you, not with me!
I know you will never figure that out, you can’t even figure out the 8010.

It’s over now for me, I don’t deal with pussies any longer, im done! Stay in your holes and crevices, where all roaches and mice live!
You have plenty of company, enjoy!
Enough wasted time.

eff you people!

[Armistead]

Click Click Click.....

[razark]

Yes, make sure you take all your toys, so none of the other kids can play with them.

[tomoose]

Subtle, kinda, LOL.
OK, so according to Greyrider WE are all too dumb to use the 8010 method, nice parting shot, classy. BTW, I was a machinist (tradesman) in my early days and am VERY familiar with trig etc. I now have a college and a university degree albeit not in the sciences but consider myself somewhat educated and of an intelligent nature. Having said that, you never stop learning. The day you think you know it all is the day you become dangerous, LOL.

I had asked, nicely I thought, waaaaay back on 'page one' of this saga for some step by step pics to explain it as I just couldn't see how an AOB of 10 degrees could be assumed based on his description/tables etc, particulalry when the target was nowhere in sight.

After following the thread it appeared to me (and I've seen nothing to prove the contrary) that this 8010 method was nothing more than a specialized way of getting into posn to do a 90 degree attack. That for me is when the theory fell on its face as pretty much every skipper uses some type of method to get into a 90 degree (or as close to 90 as practical) attack. 8010, 7020, 6030, 5040, a rose by any other name.... In other words, your approach.....period! Why cobble your initial approach and setup by dressing it up with extraneous details/calculations and convoluted tables etc? You'll have enough to do once you get into an attack position!!!!

i.e.
"Target is "there", very long range, it is moving in that general direction (AOB unknown of course), I'm "here" and moving in this direction ergo I need to be over "here" in order to be in some position to be able to attack/intercept." Not exactly rocket science and yet greyrider seems to have made it so as I'm too dumb to understand the 8010 method which is apparently rocket science.

I for one am relieved that this thread is coming to an end. It was starting...correction...it IS becoming painful to read.