[REL] Radar Training for Nisgeis' 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit UPDATED: 7/31/10

[Nisgeis]

The triangle only shows up if you are in expanded sweep mode (precision mode). If you can see the range unit (e.g. it's activated) then switch through the ranges until you get the triangles back.

[Patchman123]

Shouldn't the position keeper have to work automatically instead of you manually turning it on?

The American TDC added the feature of being able to automatically track the ship.

We should be able to track the ship automatically by having the periscope locked on to it.

What about having the radar range actually work with the TDC? I also want the XO to track the target as well from the periscope.

What about the PK TDC window in the periscope station? What are you going to do about that?

The TDC should just start automatically working if you're locked on the ship in real time. All the info was provided in real time to the TDC.
Did the actual TDC work like that?


Is it possible to have the Position Keeper to automatically work and switch on when the ship is locked in the periscope? This would be more liked how realistically the TDC worked in real life.

The PK worked when a ship was tracked in the periscope. The AOB was put in to the TDC by clicking on the TDC window.

There should be a TDC station from the Toolbar in Silent Hunter IV. It would be nice to have a separate TDC station in the sub in the coning tower. You could walk to the TDC station and manually calculate it.

[John Channing]

There are a lot of things the TDC should do, but Nisgeis is limited by what the game is designed to do.

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Patchman123

Shouldn't the position keeper have to work automatically instead of you manually turning it on?

The real PK was turn on and offable for easy control.

Originally Posted by Patchman123

The American TDC added the feature of being able to automatically track the ship.

There was no automatic tracking. What it could do was forecast the position of a ship based on the data entered into it.

Originally Posted by Patchman123

We should be able to track the ship automatically by having the periscope locked on to it.

If you want to do that, you can turn on automatic targetting. It's not realistic in any way, but it will work and will populate the TDC with the correct data.

Originally Posted by Patchman123

What about having the radar range actually work with the TDC? I also want the XO to track the target as well from the periscope.

What do you mean by 'actually work'? You can send the radar range to the TDC via the stadimeter.

Originally Posted by Patchman123

What about the PK TDC window in the periscope station? What are you going to do about that?

Er, nothing.

Originally Posted by Patchman123

The TDC should just start automatically working if you're locked on the ship in real time. All the info was provided in real time to the TDC.

If you want that, then turn on automatic targetting and all the current target data will be fed to the TDC, regardless of whether the PK is on or not.

Originally Posted by Patchman123

Did the actual TDC work like that?

No, historically, the info was not provided to the TDC in real time, The best that happened was the information was presented to the TDC operator, but nothing was ever entered automatically - that was done by the TDC operator. This was only in the Mark 4, which had a stack between the PK and sound bearing converter stack and the Gyro Angle Solver Stack.

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I would not have thought to look up there. I am now using a Gar. It is 6/41 and your mod has no triangle. Where did it go? Do you have any idea why it disappeared? Also, I will probably have to wait for Channing to get further in his tutorial to understand all of the mods aspects.

I don't believe it will work in a Gar class. As far as I understand it it should only work in Balao and Gato.

Nisgeis?

JCC

[Nisgeis]

I've no idea what interior the Gar uses... depends on what supermod you use. If you can see the range unit, the mod will work, if you can't it won't.

[Patchman123]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

The real PK was turn on and offable for easy control.



There was no automatic tracking. What it could do was forecast the position of a ship based on the data entered into it.



If you want to do that, you can turn on automatic targetting. It's not realistic in any way, but it will work and will populate the TDC with the correct data.



What do you mean by 'actually work'? You can send the radar range to the TDC via the stadimeter.



Er, nothing.



If you want that, then turn on automatic targetting and all the current target data will be fed to the TDC, regardless of whether the PK is on or not.



No, historically, the info was not provided to the TDC in real time, The best that happened was the information was presented to the TDC operator, but nothing was ever entered automatically - that was done by the TDC operator. This was only in the Mark 4, which had a stack between the PK and sound bearing converter stack and the Gyro Angle Solver Stack.

The Torpedo Data Computer (TDC) was an early electromechanical analog computer used for torpedo fire-control on American submarines during World War II (see Figure 1). Britain, Germany, and Japan also developed automated torpedo fire control equipment, but none were as advanced as US Navy's TDC.[1] These nations all developed torpedo fire control computers for calculating torpedo courses to intercept targets, but the TDC added the ability to automatically track the target. The target tracking capabilities of the TDC were unique for submarines during World War II and set the standard for submarine torpedo fire control at that time.[2][3]

This is what Wikipedia says.


Are you going to add a Mark IV TDC or did they even exist in World War II? It would be more accurate to add a Mark IV TDC in case we play campaigns later on in the war like 1944-1945 against the Japanese merchant ships.

[Nisgeis]

Wikipedia is wrong. There was no automatic tracking, as that suggests that the TDC could somehow get the information on the target and generate a tracking solution of its own. The tracking was done by the tracking party, who was a group of guys who plotted the data furnished to them by the radar periscope and sonar stations. The course and speed were worked out and then input into the TDC. The TDC from then on could be used to compare the generated position of the ship to the actual position of the ship and from that work out if the target was faster, or was on a different course or if it has perfromed a zig.

There are no plans to put in a Mark 4 complete, but elements of it are in the mod already, e.g. radar bearing and sonar bearing indicators and repeaters for the generated bearing and range at the radar station for error checking. The Mark 4 was put into later boats (like the Tench class) and some of the earlier mark 3s were upgraded but some were not. It depended on the boat. The Mark 3 TDC could only track a target to a range of 8,000 yards and a Mark 4 could track out to 40,000 yards.

[I'm goin' down]

I had it backwards. I thought the ships not to use were Gatos and Balaos.

re Patchman123--Wikipedia for a citaition for something this technical seems a stretch, but it was creative regradless.

[Gorshkov]

Probably word "tracking" is wrongly understood here!

Actually tracking means some device can observe target constantly or periodically via radio waves, acoustic waves, thermal signature etc. and essentially "plot" its course (now in computer memory) based on such data and sometimes ALSO thanks to some calculations/predictions. Look at TWS (track-while-scan) radar mode present in nowadays fighter radars as a very good illustration.

TDC was an electromechanical analog computer which was fed manually by the crew with target's course, AOB and range. Later it computed target's future locations assuming that target will be constantly moving with the same previously entered course and speed. However TDC did not have any direct link to automatic sensors observing target all the time and thus it could not correct its estimations when target suddenly changed its course for instance. Yet TDC was very helpful during preparation to attack ecause human tracking party could easily detect abrupt target's maneuvers and react appropriately.

I think the latter situation is correctly presented in SH4 even without this mod. However stock TDC does not have any connection to radar or more precisely - human player cannot read exact data from radar and feed TDC with them.

Moreover you can look at German U-boat's TDC (or whatever it was named): in SH4 this device can also predict target's location but it is indicated only by moving torpedo path according to its course without "tracking" target itself!

[Nisgeis]

Exactly Gorshkov. The TDC was much more advanced than depicted in SH4. For example time could be wound forwards and back, to allow time to be reset and a new course and speed to be put in and then the TDC would be wound forward to the last recorded position to see if that matched. Also, when closest a fast target you could wind the TDC forward to see at what point (timewise and position wise) you would be closest to the target, That allowed you to get ready and to know when your best firing point was coming up.

[Gorshkov]

Of course but I am not sure if full modeling of Mk-III TDC would be UBI's best option. First, vast majority of players would find handling of such TDC too difficult. Second, exact TDC design and its theoretical background was not unveiled even until now due to national security reasons if Wikipedia's article is right. Well, why to help possible enemies to master torpedo targeting?

However developers should have allowed modders like you to recreate full TDC by leaving needed features in the game code.

[Nisgeis]

The TDC manuals have been available for a long time now, since before SH4 was made. The most important thing that hasn't been simulated in the TDC is the updating of the bearing. In the real TDC if you wind up the bearing the AoB and range changes, as if the target had moved along its course. In the simulated TDC the range styays the same and the AoB stays the same, so effectively when you update the bearing you have to enter a range again and if the course was right, you just made it go wrong and then have to re-enter that again, which isn't easy with the stock AoB only dial entry. It all makes for very high workload last minute adjustments and actually makes the TDC less useful than it was in reality.

[Gorshkov]

This is another story! If UBI had implemented this feature according to your description above it would have made player's life easier. I meant rather Position Keeper lacking features and crappy access to radar data discussed earlier.

BTW - what do you know about clicking two times on this red mark present on dial entry? This was once mentioned as necessary in one of Dick O'Kane's targeting tutorials.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

BTW - what do you know about clicking two times on this red mark present on dial entry? This was once mentioned as necessary in one of Dick O'Kane's targeting tutorials.

It's a problem when the PK is off. If the PK is on, then the target data is calculated correctly. If the PK is off, then you need to send the data twice to get the TDC to display the correct gyro angle. If the PK is on, it's not an issue. I don't know if it's just a display problem, or whether the wrong gyro angle is passed to the torpedo. In either case, if you use the TDC with the PK on, then you don't ever have that problem.