Merchant ships - how do you see flags at night?

[Drakken]

Originally Posted by notanameleft

As GWX doesn't show on the map if a merchant is allied or enemy - could anyone tell me if i'm doing something wrong, I'm having difficulty when lining up an attack at night. I have to get pretty close to be able to see the flag at all but in particular I'm finding it difficult to tel the difference between Irish, French and Italian. In the daylight it would be easy but in the dark the colours don't show up - I torp'd an Irish merchant by mistake thinking it was french. As it was going down i surfaced right by its stern and still couldn't properly make out which flag it's mean to be. Almost feel like my watch crew could do with a torch - although i suppose that's not very stealth like!:rotfl:

Is this just one of those situations where the game is just being realistic? Or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!!

It is realistic. And not all merchants had their true country flags. Use of false flags and lights in the night to hide the fact that the ship was an enemy merchantman was a real possibility. Unless you had updated ship registries inside your submarine to check the ship's identity, property and country of registration, you could never be sure if the ship was really neutral. But of course, in the game the ships always display their real country flags.

In the Buchheim's novel Das Boot, such a near-miss happened. On their way back to the Bay of Biscaye they stop a ship which seem a Spanish neutral. However the 1WO cannot find the ship in the Uboot's registry book, so Der Alte instructs the target to put a canoe on the water, or they will sink the ship. They do not act fast enough to his liking, so the sub shoots a torpedo to sink it. Fortunately, the eel is a dud, and the Spanish captain finally puts a canoe at sea to join the submarine.

In the end the Navigator finds the ship in the updates annexed to the registry, confirming that it was an old American ship that was bought by Spaniards fishermen, and thus really a neutral ship. Useless to say, the 1WO got severely reprimanded for his oversight. Just imagine the consequence if a German ship had sunk a Spanish vessel in Spanish waters.

However, it all depends on position. You always want to be abeam of your target.

a) Take marks and compute the target's course and speed as far as possible. Make sure the course line is dead center on the middle of the target ship's bow and stern. When you have the target's course, turn on the same course yourself a faster speed to place yourself abeam of the target. Take the time it takes to reach a position in front of the target to enter the target's speed in the TDC.

b) When in position, veer to place yourself in front of the target's course at a 90 degrees angle from the target's course, then go in periscope depth. Try to get within a very close range from the course line (800 to 1200m) and wait for the target to get closer following her course.

I usually use the compass to delimitate a "kill zone" with the center of the compass directly on the course line at a bearing I'd like to fire at. This zone is generally 1000m wide, and when the ship enters that zone it means I can fire at will if I ever identify it.

c) Compute the fire solution in case of positive identification, either at a point in advance or directly on target. You already have the speed and range (hopefully), and since the course is drawn you can calculate the AoB on the navigation map. You may even predict what the AoB the ship will be at a given point at if it continues on its predicted course. That is a killer if your data solution is made to fire at a preselected bearing.

d) Go to periscope to check from time to time if you may see the flag. Each time that you cannot see the flag, update the fire solution to be ready to fire anytime. Usually, you'll be able to see when the AoB becomes closer to 90 degrees, because the target should be getting closer from you.

e1) If you see it is a neutral, pull down the periscope and let is pass.
e2) If it is enemy, update the data one last time and shoot away.
e3) If you cannot see, take a decision. Either shoot anyway, or evade the target.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Drakken

It is realistic. And not all merchants had their true country flags. Use of false flags and lights in the night to hide the fact that the ship was an enemy merchantman was a real possibility. Unless you had updated ship registries inside your submarine to check the ship's identity, property and country of registration, you could never be sure if the ship was really neutral. But of course, in the game the ships always display their real country flags.

Which is why they stopped neutral ships and examined cargoes and papers.

Just imagine the consequence if a German ship had sunk a Spanish vessel in Spanish waters.

Apparently not much of a consequense at all.
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1151.html
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1223.html
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/266.html
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/2854.html

[Kuckoo]

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakken:
Just imagine the consequence if a German ship had sunk a Spanish vessel in Spanish waters.

Steve,
I have previously seen the same information, and you have beaten me to it. It seems to me that, with the exception of American ships (of which there are only a few examples of sinkings), the BdU treated almost all neutral ships are fair game in almost any circumstances - and it appears they got away with it! Why they attacked so many neutral ships (Spanish, Swedish, Danish and especially Norwegian, plus many others) and how they got away with it, are things that genuinely puzzle me. I have tried to find explanations, but cannot find anything which deals with this issue.

Since sinking neutrals was evidently acceptable to BdU, I have amended the relevant .cfg file, as suggested in another thread. I then play to my own "house rules" to stop me doing anything crass.

[Drakken]

Originally Posted by Kuckoo

Steve,
I have previously seen the same information, and you have beaten me to it. It seems to me that, with the exception of American ships (of which there are only a few examples of sinkings), the BdU treated almost all neutral ships are fair game in almost any circumstances - and it appears they got away with it! Why they attacked so many neutral ships (Spanish, Swedish, Danish and especially Norwegian, plus many others) and how they got away with it, are things that genuinely puzzle me. I have tried to find explanations, but cannot find anything which deals with this issue.

Since sinking neutrals was evidently acceptable to BdU, I have amended the relevant .cfg file, as suggested in another thread. I then play to my own "house rules" to stop me doing anything crass.

Weren't the majority of neutral ships sunk while in convoy? If it is the case, there was no way to know if the ship was neutral or not.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Kaleun ={FH}=Paddy

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Kuckoo

Since sinking neutrals was evidently acceptable to BdU, I have amended the relevant .cfg file, as suggested in another thread. I then play to my own "house rules" to stop me doing anything crass.

Cheaters never prosper!
:rotfl:

I suspect it was my suggestion you saw in that other thread. I changed my 'Renown Awarded' for neutrals to '0'. That way I don't get punished for it, but I don't get any credit either. It just turns into a waste of good torpedoes.

[nikbear]

Welcome aboard ={FH}=Paddy

[Drakken]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Cheaters never prosper!
:rotfl:

I suspect it was my suggestion you saw in that other thread. I changed my 'Renown Awarded' for neutrals to '0'. That way I don't get punished for it, but I don't get any credit either. It just turns into a waste of good torpedoes.

Interesting...

[Task Force]

Ive had a close incounter with the merchent kind in those storms where you cant see past the front of the boat. I once was saining of the cost of norway when out of the fog comes a merchent that slams into me. Never saw it comeing.:rotfl:

[notanameleft]

hey everyone, thanks for the response - i'm pleased to hear it's not just me and the general concensus is this is realistic, those uboat commanders would have been in the same situation

I didn't realise you can leg it out of the area before the ship goes down if you've got a bit trigger happy. I was delighted with myself a couple of weeks ago when i hit two big merchants and then realised they were Irish! Felt a bit monty-python-like, "sorry about that" etc

It took them a while to go down - if this were to happen again (!) and there's a chance of getting away before they sink... does anyone know how far away you have to get to save your renown?

[meduza]

Originally Posted by notanameleft

does anyone know how far away you have to get to save your renown?

32 km. That's the rendering radius, and the game doesn't keep track of the ship's damage once she goes beyond that. If you come back to the ship, you'll find it undamaged.

[Greystone]

I had been tracking a trawler the other night; it was too dark to make out the flag markings, but I noticed that the stealth meter was still green after I'd approached close enough for them to see me.. and it stayed green all the way up to where I was right alongside it.
Turns out it was Norwegian (1939). It appears that the stealth meter (noise meter) will stay green if the vessel in question is allied to Germany or neutral.
If you've disabled the stealth meter in the realism settings, you can still make out the nationality by turning up the brightness setting on your monitor, if it's available, which is what I did in the above example.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Kuckoo: In the cases of Norway and Spain, I don't know. Maybe they figured those two countries were ripe for the plucking and didn't care what they thought. Maybe they came up with official excuses we haven't seen yet. All I know is that it happened, and there doesn't seem to have been too much of a fuss.

[Steel_Tomb]

I remember one convoy which only had one DD escorting it, I dispatched that and had free reign over the shipping. I sank 15 ships, without thinking to ID any of them. After I finished I realized that there had been about 5 neutral ships in the pack which I'd taken down lol ...

moral of the story - ALWAYS check the flag!

[Kielhauler1961]

With regards to German-Spanish relations up until 1943, Adolf was providing Franco with essential supplies to help rebuild the shattered Spanish economy. Although not as much as Spain wanted, it made a huge difference. Remember the country was slowly recovering from a catastrophic civil war and didn't have the resourses, capability or enthusiasm for the greater war that Germany wanted to involve it in.

After November 1940, when Franco made it plain to Hitler he wasn't going to get involved unless Britain fell, I guess the gloves came off. Franco was one of the few people who got the better of Adolf in face-to-face exchanges. After one meeting, Hitler told his adjutant "I'd rather have three or four teeth pulled-out than go throught that again!"

Sweden was as all about hard cash and the realities of life. Germany paid in gold for Swedish minerals, so a few unfortunate sinkings here and there were 'excusable'. There was a tacit agreement between them that Sweden would remain 'sovereign' so long as she was helpful to Germany. The transportation of German troops across Swedish territory before Barbarossa being a case in point.

Right from the start, Norway put it's merchant marine at the service of Britain. Norwegian ships were therefore considered fair game as they could be readily assumed to be carrying contraband, especially if in the North Sea. American ships were avoided wherever possible because she was just that bit bigger than Norway, but what they did was even more illegal. Thank God for lend-lease and 'cash & carry', but it was technically against the law at the time! If you doubt me, type 'USS Reuben James' into wikipedia. The only reason I'm here today is because of food aid my mother received from the United States of America (God bless 'em!)

The 'prize rules' of WW1 could not be enforced or expected in the age of modern aircraft, so they were ignored once Hitler realised Britain and France were actually up for a fight.