Sales of SH 5 - Page 2

Coldcall · 03-23-10, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Oh boy, so many things wrong with that, don't know where to begin.

Well this is a forum to express yourself, so give it a try.

My point is that some competition would be good for the subsim community, but if you want to make the case that we are better off living with Ubsiofts dominance of the subsim genre - be my guest...

Onkel Neal · 03-23-10, 08:46 AM

Sorry, I apologize for the short, snotty remark

I tired to ninja edit it and add a reply to you that was more in the spirit of the Subsim forums, but you replied too quick

So, please ignore that and read my edited comments

nikimcbee · 03-23-10, 08:59 AM

It would be cool if Sid Meier would do an updated version of Silent Service.

But on a side note, Neal is correct about a smaller group putting out a big name game, unless they have the capital (which I highly doubt

) to hire good programming, artistic talent, QA, marketing, to get it to market in a timely manner

. Plus a lot of the publishers are corrupt, unethical sheissters

.

SteamWake · 03-23-10, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

It would be cool if Sid Meier would do an updated version of Silent Service.

But on a side note, Neal is correct about a smaller group putting out a big name game, unless they have the capital (which I highly doubt

) to hire good programming, artistic talent, QA, marketing, to get it to market in a timely manner

. Plus a lot of the publishers are corrupt, unethical sheissters

.

Sid has lost it.. compare railroads to railroad tycoon

Coldcall · 03-23-10, 09:42 AM

Neal,

"There are excellent smaller developers out there, but I doubt very much any of them can make an AAA title like Silent Hunter that will match our expectations. Even before Ubisoft took over the SH series, there has only been one game that rose to the level of SH: Aces of the Deep. And Sierra, even with the crack Dynamix dev team ready to make a sequel, decided it was not profitable. They decided it was not profitable."

Triple A? I dont think any SH title (unmodded) could be called that except for maybe SH3 (introducing the dynamic campaign). Of course that is a matter of opinion.

I reckon the major appeal of SH games since SH3 has been the dynamic campaign. Just like the major feature of F4 was that it boasted one of the first realtime complex dynamic campaigns for sim enthusiasts.

Why are these two games so popular amongst sim fans? Because they have *dynamic campaigns*. I know i keep saying it over and over but i think its improitant to grasp what makes SH popular regardless of the bugs, and broken implementation of major aspects of the game.

I dont buy the excuses that a sub game is not profitable and the only reason Ubi can do it because they just recycle most components from the previous Sh games.

Each release can bag anywhere between $10m-$20million gross on a 200k-400k sold at $50 per copy.

A dev team of 25 artists/programmers working for 2 and half years cannot produce that game and make a profit?

When corps talk about profitability they often have very inflated ideas about RTO, especially when they compare that title next to say a much more populist title like Assasins Creed.

I take what those companies say about profitability with a large grain of salt.

"Anything is possible, I suppose. But there is a lot more evidence that a game as good as SH3/SH4 can only be created by a large publisher like Ubisoft. And with a weak SH5, if anyone was going to try to take that market over, now would be the time. I haven't heard anything at all that remotely sounds like this will happen. EA is making a major sub game, but it will be like Battlestations: Midway, and it's X-box all the way, baby."

Whether in a year or two or a decade, there will be other sub sims and they wont always be made by Ubisoft.

Sonarman · 03-23-10, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

It would be cool if Sid Meier would do an updated version of Silent Service.

Not so sure about that... this from Sid's Keynote speech at this years GDC

" We want you to feel good about yourself while you're playing. This went off the tracks with Flight Simulators: early on they were accessible and easy to play. Then we got to every iteration where they went more complex, more realistic.. and pretty soon the player went from I'm Good to I'm Confused. My plane is falling out of the sky. The fun went out of it. Keep your player feeling good about themselves."

Add to the fact that SH4 sold a lot less copies in the US than SHIII and you have to question the viability of a Pacific theatre subsim.

Faamecanic · 03-23-10, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I agree 100% with your assessment. Our biggest hope remains that if Ubisoft refuses to support SH5 and fund SH6, that the serious sim guys in Bucharest can work out a deal with another publisher. Oleg, everyone's favorite messiah, someone... The next subsim will probably be Russian, like T-34 vs Tiger.

Im not buying the argument that SH series is too big for a small developer.

Granted...the engine itself is what costs BIG $$$ to make. And Ubistank isnt about to release even the SH III engine.

But if modders like the GWX/RUB/RFB can make such wonderful mods that in essance redifine the game.... then I dont see why the Devs couldnt find funding to remake a new series.

Nemesis43 · 03-24-10, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The next subsim will probably be Russian, like T-34 vs Tiger.

Frankly, that's a scary idea, given that many russian produced games either never get patched, or never get patched except for the original version in russian. That's if an english version is released at all.
That said, I do think a lot of very interesting non-mainstream games are produced in Russia. I just wish they'd be more consistent in support and more ambitious about selling and supporting english versions.
Too often, an english version is delayed 6 months or more, or is just never released at all, and too often games are released and immediately abandoned without much needed patching.

Dowly · 03-24-10, 08:21 AM

I hope for a russian/eastern european take on a subsim. They tend to make some pretty good sims from time to time.

Nemesis43 · 03-24-10, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

I hope for a russian/eastern european take on a subsim. They tend to make some pretty good sims from time to time.

Well, SH3,4 and 5 are eastern european takes on subsims

It's just that the publisher isn't.

Dowly · 03-24-10, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis43

Well, SH3,4 and 5 are eastern european takes on subsims

It's just that the publisher isn't.

*Sigh* I knew I should've mentioned that I am aware of that.

janh · 03-24-10, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

I hope for a russian/eastern european take on a subsim. They tend to make some pretty good sims from time to time.

Although I think competition on this genre would only do good, I think Ubisoft Romania has earned a last chance to make up with patches, addons, and the promised content addition that followed the server outages. I think I had many a good time with SHIII, and if they enable me to buy and play SHV anywhere and anytime (in single player mode) without intruding my freedom, I will finally still buy this.

Seems like modders are still on board in sufficient numbers to turn this baby around (assume all the functions and basics required to make the 43-45 part come true are there). So I'll keep watching and hoping for the best.

If it doesn't happen, then I hope someone else will take this genre up...

Wurschtie · 03-28-10, 02:46 PM

Just to add something to the thought of 'the future of simulation gaming':

I remember, when I was flying helicopters in FS9 and FSX in a community in the US, named hovercontrol, I met some people who were a combined Operation Flashpoint/Flight Simulator Clan. They played both titles, simulated combined air/ground missions with both games. And they didn't even mind the huge gap they had to jump when switching between both games. What they did with imagination can be done with a great bunch of gifted developers and modders. And it cannot be done with a huge publisher like Ubisoft.

Unite. Please.

Turbografx · 03-28-10, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

There are excellent smaller developers out there, but I doubt very much any of them can make an AAA title like Silent Hunter that will match our expectations....
Anything is possible, I suppose. But there is a lot more evidence that a game as good as SH3/SH4 can only be created by a large publisher like Ubisoft.

Neal,

What about SES' Jutland, Eagle Dynamics' DCS series, neoqb's ROF, eSim's SBpro, Graviteam's SF: Kharkov 1942, OBD's OFF etc, etc.

There are a lot of small, sometimes self-published developers that can produce very complex (more than SH), and often graphically acceptable (DCS, ROF, SF) sims.

My point, there are a lot of groups who can meet or exceed our expectations. Indeed, as far as fidelity, complexity and accuracy are concerned, SH would be beaten by all of the above. Some can equal it in graphics too.

Wurschtie · 03-29-10, 01:56 AM

Problem with some of the beforementioned studios is, that the studios are not game studios in the first place. Take DCS or ArmA for example. These publishers are mainly doing titles which sell pretty well to special customers like armies of real states. With these titles, it was luckily the case that the professional (as in 'serious') sim also had some parallels and quite a big market in the gaming sector, so a slightly different and a more or less simple version was released as a pc game.

Many publishers do not have the background of commercial 'serious' sims, which is a background that provides a lot of freedom to them in terms of funding.

03-23-10, 08:46 AM	#2
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,386 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Sorry, I apologize for the short, snotty remark I tired to ninja edit it and add a reply to you that was more in the spirit of the Subsim forums, but you replied too quick So, please ignore that and read my edited comments __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

03-23-10, 08:59 AM	#3
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	It would be cool if Sid Meier would do an updated version of Silent Service. But on a side note, Neal is correct about a smaller group putting out a big name game, unless they have the capital (which I highly doubt) to hire good programming, artistic talent, QA, marketing, to get it to market in a timely manner. Plus a lot of the publishers are corrupt, unethical sheissters. __________________

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03-23-10, 09:42 AM	#5
Coldcall Chief Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 325 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Neal, "There are excellent smaller developers out there, but I doubt very much any of them can make an AAA title like Silent Hunter that will match our expectations. Even before Ubisoft took over the SH series, there has only been one game that rose to the level of SH: Aces of the Deep. And Sierra, even with the crack Dynamix dev team ready to make a sequel, decided it was not profitable. They decided it was not profitable." Triple A? I dont think any SH title (unmodded) could be called that except for maybe SH3 (introducing the dynamic campaign). Of course that is a matter of opinion. I reckon the major appeal of SH games since SH3 has been the dynamic campaign. Just like the major feature of F4 was that it boasted one of the first realtime complex dynamic campaigns for sim enthusiasts. Why are these two games so popular amongst sim fans? Because they have dynamic campaigns. I know i keep saying it over and over but i think its improitant to grasp what makes SH popular regardless of the bugs, and broken implementation of major aspects of the game. I dont buy the excuses that a sub game is not profitable and the only reason Ubi can do it because they just recycle most components from the previous Sh games. Each release can bag anywhere between $10m-$20million gross on a 200k-400k sold at $50 per copy. A dev team of 25 artists/programmers working for 2 and half years cannot produce that game and make a profit? When corps talk about profitability they often have very inflated ideas about RTO, especially when they compare that title next to say a much more populist title like Assasins Creed. I take what those companies say about profitability with a large grain of salt. "Anything is possible, I suppose. But there is a lot more evidence that a game as good as SH3/SH4 can only be created by a large publisher like Ubisoft. And with a weak SH5, if anyone was going to try to take that market over, now would be the time. I haven't heard anything at all that remotely sounds like this will happen. EA is making a major sub game, but it will be like Battlestations: Midway, and it's X-box all the way, baby." Whether in a year or two or a decade, there will be other sub sims and they wont always be made by Ubisoft.

03-24-10, 08:21 AM	#9
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,056 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I hope for a russian/eastern european take on a subsim. They tend to make some pretty good sims from time to time.

03-28-10, 02:46 PM	#13
Wurschtie Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 8 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Just to add something to the thought of 'the future of simulation gaming': I remember, when I was flying helicopters in FS9 and FSX in a community in the US, named hovercontrol, I met some people who were a combined Operation Flashpoint/Flight Simulator Clan. They played both titles, simulated combined air/ground missions with both games. And they didn't even mind the huge gap they had to jump when switching between both games. What they did with imagination can be done with a great bunch of gifted developers and modders. And it cannot be done with a huge publisher like Ubisoft. Unite. Please.

03-29-10, 01:56 AM	#15
Wurschtie Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 8 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Problem with some of the beforementioned studios is, that the studios are not game studios in the first place. Take DCS or ArmA for example. These publishers are mainly doing titles which sell pretty well to special customers like armies of real states. With these titles, it was luckily the case that the professional (as in 'serious') sim also had some parallels and quite a big market in the gaming sector, so a slightly different and a more or less simple version was released as a pc game. Many publishers do not have the background of commercial 'serious' sims, which is a background that provides a lot of freedom to them in terms of funding.