Jasonb885's new RND file; a big step forward for all SH3

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by zzsteven

Please, I wasn't proofreading your post. It caught my eye and then when you said in the parenthesis you finally got it right, I couldn't resist razzing for a minute. To be honest I had to check with Merriam-Webster.

Sorry if I offended you, I like to joke and tease sometimes.

zz

Heh, no, it's okay. I found it amusing I was wrong anyway.

[Wulfmann]

While there are even worse problems with accurate ship info, most notably the River class which is not the River class at all but the A-D class that were modified to be convoy escorts, the Hunt do bother me more. The River actually come in when the converted A-D would so are just wrongly named ships that would be there.
While all the DDs use the launch dates that are 3-8 months earlier than the ships should enter service, The Hunt classes, all of them, totally ignore historic reference and enter a year or more than they should even before some were laid down and way before launching.
The first two Hunt class type I were launched on December 12, 1939 and entered service late spring of 1940. They were very unstable and had to be modified so it actually may have been much later than that.
SH3 has them enter in 1937.
You think that is OK?????
Would a XXI entering at the end of 1941 be OK????? Same difference in time!!!
The SH3 Hunt type II enters in June of 1940 or about when the type I should start to come into SH3. The first type II to be launched was August 20, 1940 and did not enter service until the end of the year or about 1-1-1941.
All the type II in SH3 enter 6-40 where most actually entered in early 1942 or later.
The type III in SH3 enters in 6-41. The very first type III launched was July 23, 1941. Most were launched in 42 and they entered service from about 1-1-42 to mid 1943. So the type II is closer but still in use before one empty hull even touched the water.

No disrespect intended but to feel the same SH3 tanker should have a different flag to better represent realistic convoy make up when the escort may not be in existence for years to come, correcting that seems even more necessary for realism. But, that is just my opinion.

While SH3 did this in similar ways to other ships like adding all the classes from K-Q to the Jclass and have them in service at the beginning when those were 2-3 years away, well, at least the class was there, not so with the Hunt.
My point was correcting the Hunt is not very hard to do while the other s would be complex to edit
I noticed you moved up the Black Swan class which was the only escort class they actually placed near correct entered service dates on in SH3.
However, the Egret class of which the Black Swan derived, are so close to utilize them at the war's start in the Black Swan name is far more accurate than calling the various ships included in the JClass which are not at all close to the J.
To see a Black Swan type attacking you in Sept 1939 would be possible.
A Hunt class, totally impossible.
When we can, totally impossible should be corrected, IMO
Wulfmann

[Observer]

I would think changing the roster dates for the Hunt class would not be that difficult and stays with the out of the box approach thus far. We've adjusted the entry dates for mechants, why not the Hunts?

[Wulfmann]

That is easy but not all that must be done.
The dates for the various classes must be edited for the RND file, which is also not hard.
But, the SCR names specific ships such as Hunt Type I #2.
It must be done correctly to not cause a problem and the first ships in the SCR are the type I Hunt class.
That means you must make sure if you replace that Hunt type I #2 with a V&W #3 that the same ship, V&W #3 is not in use on that time stretch in the SCR or it will CTD. Once the first group is exchanged, the other Hunts are simply backed up. A Hunt II can be changed to a Hunt I, a Hunt III can be changed to a Hunt II etc. All dates for the ships must be rechecked to be sure there are no overlaps for those patrols.
Wulfmann

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

While there are even worse problems with accurate ship info, most notably the River class which is not the River class at all but the A-D class that were modified to be convoy escorts, the Hunt do bother me more. The River actually come in when the converted A-D would so are just wrongly named ships that would be there.

I can't imagine why the River can't just be renamed the A-D then?

While all the DDs use the launch dates that are 3-8 months earlier than the ships should enter service, The Hunt classes, all of them, totally ignore historic reference and enter a year or more than they should even before some were laid down and way before launching.

So I noticed.

The first two Hunt class type I were launched on December 12, 1939 and entered service late spring of 1940. They were very unstable and had to be modified so it actually may have been much later than that.
SH3 has them enter in 1937.
You think that is OK?????

I think it's unfortunate. I don't think it's worth a freakout though.

Would a XXI entering at the end of 1941 be OK????? Same difference in time!!!

Not really. The player drives the sub, so having an uber-sub in 1941 would be silly. But having an extra destroyer available in a game where there are few warships models doesn't bother me. The alternative is to have even fewer escorts available for a longer period of time.

The SH3 Hunt type II enters in June of 1940 or about when the type I should start to come into SH3. The first type II to be launched was August 20, 1940 and did not enter service until the end of the year or about 1-1-1941.
All the type II in SH3 enter 6-40 where most actually entered in early 1942 or later.
The type III in SH3 enters in 6-41. The very first type III launched was July 23, 1941. Most were launched in 42 and they entered service from about 1-1-42 to mid 1943. So the type II is closer but still in use before one empty hull even touched the water.

I think I could recite this from memory now...

No disrespect intended but to feel the same SH3 tanker should have a different flag to better represent realistic convoy make up when the escort may not be in existence for years to come, correcting that seems even more necessary for realism. But, that is just my opinion.

None taken. I merely feel you're missing the forest for the trees here. But that's okay. Our goals are different. I am attempting to bring the greatest benefit to the largest number of players with the least amount of investment possible. I have succeeded.

Including historic nations in convoys, for example, is a rather simple exercise. Especially so in light of everyone and his dog having dibs on the SCR layer for the mod-of-the-week regarding ship traffic. It's too much hassle to kick out my own mod for the SCR with realistic entry dates for Hunt Class destroyers when it'll conflict with 5,000 people's different variant of some harbor traffic mod. It's just not worth my time either trying to organize everyone (if anyone cares) so our changes can be properly applied using a tool like `diff` so they're easy to manage or modding everyone's new SCR to include the correct changes myself. Thanks, but no.

While SH3 did this in similar ways to other ships like adding all the classes from K-Q to the Jclass and have them in service at the beginning when those were 2-3 years away, well, at least the class was there, not so with the Hunt.
My point was correcting the Hunt is not very hard to do while the other s would be complex to edit
I noticed you moved up the Black Swan class which was the only escort class they actually placed near correct entered service dates on in SH3.

It's extremely complicated. See above with regard to dozens of SCR implementations and people's deep burning need to use them which would immediately conflict with ImprovedConvoys, resulting in it likely getting the Recyle Bin. God forbid someone not have their harbor traffic.

Yes, I moved the Black Swan because it's listed as a sloop and sloops saw action early in the war as convoy escorts. The only one available is the Black Swan, even if it's not a sloop, so there it is. Oops.

If you'd like to provide some additional ship models, _that_ would be helpful and appreciated.

However, the Egret class of which the Black Swan derived, are so close to utilize them at the war's start in the Black Swan name is far more accurate than calling the various ships included in the JClass which are not at all close to the J.
To see a Black Swan type attacking you in Sept 1939 would be possible.
A Hunt class, totally impossible.
When we can, totally impossible should be corrected, IMO
Wulfmann

It's not as trivial as you believe. But feel free to _organize_ the modders and setup a repository where people can check in changes to a global SCR file using, say, Subversion, and still manage to keep stuff separated to the degree that people don't freak out when there's too much/too little/no harbor traffic to speak of or whatever.

It's not worth my time.

I'll modify the entry dates for the Hunt Class if you can give me a list of which RndGroup BRPatrols will be effected and that you don't care that they won't spawn anymore.

Otherwise, enough with the Hunter Class. Talk to someone in a SCR modification thread about it. I can't help you.

I apologize for the tone, but I haven't seen a post from you yet that isn't primarily about the Hunt Class destroyers having inaccurate entries dates in any thread that mentions the RND and SCR layers. Seriously, just fix it on your end and be happy.

[joea]

Why the offended tone Jason? I happend to really enjoy what you've done with the convoys, if you don't like other player's wants for mods no need to insult them? Or am i missing something? What does a SCR file do?

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by joea

Why the offended tone Jason? I happend to really enjoy what you've done with the convoys, if you don't like other player's wants for mods no need to insult them? Or am i missing something? What does a SCR file do?

I'm just stating the situation as I see it. If I were to modify the SCR layer (the scripted layer which is separate from the RND layer) so things like Hunt Class destroyers could have valid entry dates, of which isn't even on my list of things to do, well...

Here's the deal. The SCR layer is the basis for all the harbor traffic mods. People love their traffic mods. If I modify SH3's _default_ SCR layer and fix the Hunter Class entry dates, now people will be dumping that SCR layer in favorite of a harbor mod SCR layer or dumping ImprovedConvoys for harbor traffic.

So I either have to pick a 'side', and use someone's harbor mod as the basis for my SCR with fixed Hunter Classes, or use the stock game's SCR file.

No matter which way you play it, someone's going to be annoyed.

It's easier to just not bother.

If Wulfmann wants to release his fixed SCR with the corrections for the Hunter Class destroyers and other ships, then everyone can benefit and maybe someone maintaining a harbor mod will believe it fit for inclusion so an even greater number of people benefit.

But it's outside my domain. I don't want to have to 'pick sides' on harbor mods by including one or another with accurancy corrections for scripted patrols that include Hunter Class destroyers and others.

My goal is to solely modify the RND layer with the minimum amount of overlap with other projects as possible. Besides 20/20 the RND layer has gotten little attention from anyone else doing mods, so overlap doesn't appear like it will be an issue.

[perdu]

for the SCR layer, Rubini is working hard on it,
why don't see with him (when he will come back int 3-4 days ) for this hunter class fix????

[Jace11]

Is it still a work in progress? The med. convoys need doing still?

Are you going to give them same overhaul, formation spacing etc?

You could add a few greek escorts, raise convoy detection probilities (as air searchs from Sicily picked up many). I like the atlantic work. Still worried about large wide convoys and large spacing during course alterations. Does it cause problems with slow ships or have you tested it and found it to be fine?

e.g
HX41 in jasons layer has a max of 37 merchants and a mininum of 17.

Formation spacing is 900m between 9 columns. 8x900 = 7.2 km wide convoy formation. Distance from the centre is at the most 3.6km. Convoy speed is 9 knots.

Ill have to test, but if a course change of say 60 degrees when the player is attacking may cause one wing of the convoy to turn round and the other unable to speed up enough to get into the new station position.




Probably nothing to worry about though, if there is chaos in the formation, it may take only a short while to sort out, except tramps, which would trail convoy at 9 knots as that is thier maximum speed. I feel giving no leeway may cause people to sight "chaotic" convoys on patrols. Not a major worry I suppose, messed up convoys were historically common maybe?

There are couple of ways around this. I have increased tramps speed a little, and my RND does not have such large spacing or so many columns. But also not so many ships. Of course maybe it is not a big problem. You will have to see what people report back seeing. I think it may occur, but very rarely, as players encounter convoys mostly between waypoints and you haven't done much to convoy courses. I have a couple of other issues, but on the whole I think it is a valiant attempt to sort out many issues with the RND, just worried that while it all seems fine in the editor, there are certain practical limitations that may only become apparent in practise, i.e when the game is played.

As for mistakes, the editor seems to be fine for me. Never caused a crash for me.

Also from the books I have read, certain destroyer types were encountered more often in certain theatres. Bu changing all to generics, you have gained variety, but lost some historical accuracy. The devs seemed to get it mostly right in terms of type. J's and Tribals in the med and arctic, BSwans, corvettes, clemsons, VWs and A-Ds in atlantic.. Some crossover, but looking at service records of J and Tribals, they did some escorts but nearly exclusively to russia and med.

[CCIP]

Interesting find, Jace. I'll have to see if I can reproduce it - but I think I've seen something like that before.
The natural idea, and one which I've been pushing for in convoys all along, is increasing the ship speeds via their respective .sim files... failing that - shouldn't the tramps technically be able to do 11kt? (their .sim files say so - maybe it's the config speed of 9kt that's stopping them. In which case that's an even easier fix.)

I guess it also depends on how much effect this really has. If there's notable mess-ups, and half the convoy straggles permanently, then it's an issue. If it's just a bit disorganized while in your detection range - I don't suppose it's a major issue.

[Shadow9216]

But feel free to _organize_ the modders and setup a repository where people can check in changes to a global SCR file using, say, Subversion, and still manage to keep stuff separated to the degree that people don't freak out when there's too much/too little/no harbor traffic to speak of or whatever.

It occurs to me the elegant solution would be to find some way to offer an altered SCR, LND, RND file with the additions highlighted in some fashion...if a player wanted to add, say, the harbor traffic to the improved convoys, they could quickly scan the mod to determine what the changes are and where they come into play, and then cut and paste. I did this with World Mod 2.1 and 3.0 to get a blend, but it was very time consuming without a visual cue to go by. A color-coded section might be a nice workaround, affording the following:

1) Players could determine quickly the changes to a file
2) Greater flexibility in using mods is afforded, thus no one has to pick and choose
3) It would allow a fairly easy roll back in the event something isn't working
4) One could easily spot the types of issues you guys have been discussing with the DDs.

I like the harbor traffic, and have worked with Rubini on testing it. But I also like the Improved Convoys, and have put no small amount of time into researching and providing (hopefully) useful information on it. I'd prefer not to pick and choose, nor would I like to see either Jason or Rubini get discouraged and cease/desist efforts on our behalf.

The drawback I see (there may be others) is that this isn't something you can do with the mod enabler, and I've noticed some reluctance of people to use mods without that feature...this isn't major league coding, just minor cutting and pasting, but that may put some people off.

As I stated, my first edit was adding the harbor traffic from World Mod 3.0 to World Mod 2.1, as well as the raiders and some of the groups. It was a pain in the butt, but it worked and at the time I thought it well worth the effort. I don't mind some work on my end to create a great mod from all of your hard work. Seems only fair, IMO.

[CCIP]

Well, as I see the situation right now, since ImprovedConvoys is intended as part of the Operations mod - we'll have ourselves a new major modded set of LND, SCR and RND when Operations comes out. As far as options and selections - I think it will be easy to add/remove certain features from Operations, if people so desire, but as is the case with Jason's individual work here - I think that should be the concern of those who feel the campaign set to be 'deficient' enough to want to put in the effort for that sort of selection, rather than the concern of the Operations team themselves.

I don't think Jason or anyone else is discouraging those who want to be so detailed about the darn one-stackers that they're go in and mess with a good chunk of the campaign to get them right. But, in the same spirit that the Operations team doesn't feel that port traffic isn't worth the effort, if Jason doesn't think the one-stackers are worth the effort - perhaps it's best that someone else do something about them. Which we'd all most welcome, much as we would a realistic, un-abusable set of port traffic...

[Jace11]

Regarding Escorts and the Generic - more variety, less historical accuracy - issue...

One problem is the classes depicted in the game. The destroyers are either dedicated fleet types or highly modded ASW varients. The V&W is a mess. It starts off as a fleet class, only 2 racks and later gets a hedgehog but no K-Guns... Is it a WAIR, an LRE an SRE or what???

Historically incorrect, the V&Ws underwent conversions, I wish I could do what serg is doing to ship models as I would try and make an LRE version. Strip off the foreward funnel and add K-guns and land a turret or two.

Anyway, my point is that the most used escorts in atlantic convoys were those most suited to the task at the time. Old modded clemsons, corvettes and LRE's. The J's and Tribals were used elsewhere, where their limited ASW loadouts, AA loadouts, torpedos etc were more appropriate.

[CCIP]

Perhaps, assuming we can get Serg-level modding done here, we could simply separate the classes into two different entries and models for Fleet and ASW types?

Sounds like one of those things one wouldn't want to spend THAT much time one, but if all it takes is even changing the ASW loadouts, I'd be all for that...

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by CCIP

...
I guess it also depends on how much effect this really has. If there's notable mess-ups, and half the convoy straggles permanently, then it's an issue. If it's just a bit disorganized while in your detection range - I don't suppose it's a major issue.

I had some new convoys running at 6 kts originally and found one all messed up and backwards in the middle of a huge storm. The tramps should've been able to keep up. But all the ships were a complete mess.