Immersion, Immersion, Immersion

TarJak · 01-12-10, 05:21 AM

This one's for you mookiemookie.

Can't have too much of a good thing?

Or can you?

Is immersion the be all and end all or or just part of the enjoyment. Discuss:

Mikhayl · 01-12-10, 05:45 AM

Once Destroyers are coming for you, you can never have enough of it

mookiemookie · 01-12-10, 06:54 AM

TarJak · 01-12-10, 06:56 AM

Ouch!

Sailor Steve · 01-12-10, 02:36 PM

<SS shoves TJ's head under the water> "How's THAT for immersion, bub?"

Onkel Neal · 01-12-10, 02:53 PM

Immersion:
LeoVampire ROW
Tomi99 VIIc Engine room
Racerboy's equally great Exhaust Smoke
Diving Duck Open Hatch
Rubini's wonderful Water Streams
Evan82's Uniforms II
OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams

Gameplay, no one says it is not important, it is the heart of the game, but without "immersion", may as well play a board game.

Immersion:

No Immersion:

Ducimus · 01-12-10, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

This one's for you mookiemookie.

Can't have too much of a good thing?

Or can you?

Is immersion the be all and end all or or just part of the enjoyment. Discuss:

I think you can have too much of a good thing, although it is part of the enjoyment, but not the end all be all.Immersion is a buzzword around here. But what is immersion exactly? When people say "immersion", what i think they are referring to is a believable and detailed graphic enviorment that makes you feel as if your really there. In less kind terms - eye candy, which has become something of an (unhealthy IMO) obsession with many folks.

Since sub sims are trying to recreate something (historical renactment?) then yes, immersion makes sense, and it is, and should be part of the equation. However immersion alone does not a simulation make. In the end, it is an argument over finite development time, and of form and function. I maintain that form should never take priority over function, or in other words, form should never come at the price of function. If you put a shiny wrapper around a POS, all you end up with is a shiny POS, but a POS none the less.

(Not saying SH5 is a POS, but i have no other metaphor that convey's my point better)

mookiemookie · 01-12-10, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Since sub sims are trying to recreate something (historical renactment?) then yes, immersion makes sense, and it is, and should be part of the equation. However immersion alone does not a simulation make. In the end, it is an argument over finite development time, and of form and function. I maintain that form should never take priority over function, or in other words, form should never come at the price of function. If you put a shiny wrapper around a POS, all you end up with is a shiny POS, but a POS none the less.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

subsimlee · 01-17-10, 11:16 AM

Well guys, I agree and disagree with all of the above but the discussions might be better aimed at SH-6. The reality is that at this late date the die is already cast for SH-5. All we can hope for is the comprimises that Ubi has settled upon satisfy something of the multitude of desires expressed. Complete or close immersion is very difficult to achieve until you can experience the heat/cold, noise and SMELL of a conventional boat....( I served on British "A" and "O" boats out of Halifax in the sixties ) I,ve always found something to enjoy and something to wish for in all the SH series. I think that's what keeps us hooked! Fingers crossed......

IanC · 01-18-10, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subsimlee

Well guys, I agree and disagree with all of the above but the discussions might be better aimed at SH-6. The reality is that at this late date the die is already cast for SH-5. All we can hope for is the comprimises that Ubi has settled upon satisfy something of the multitude of desires expressed. Complete or close immersion is very difficult to achieve until you can experience the heat/cold, noise and SMELL of a conventional boat....( I served on British "A" and "O" boats out of Halifax in the sixties ) I,ve always found something to enjoy and something to wish for in all the SH series. I think that's what keeps us hooked! Fingers crossed......

Welcome aboard sir!

Always good to have real submariners around, to set some of us straight on certain things.

subsimlee · 01-18-10, 10:16 AM

Thanks IanC,
My perspective was that of a sonarman aboard the boats, so like most i'm a babe in the woods when it comes to the broad perspective of a commander in the reality levels of our sims. I've enjoyed learning from those experienced in the SH series.......It has certainly helped in my sense of immersion!

V.C. Sniper · 01-18-10, 06:08 PM

GF 100 SILENT HUNTER 5 WITH WATER SIMULATION AT LAST??

http://www.nvidia.com/object/gf100.html

Reaves · 01-18-10, 10:41 PM

I want laser guided torpedoes and invincibility with non depleting shells. Plus an instant action button that takes me directly to a firing solution position on a battleship.

Ducimus · 01-18-10, 11:06 PM

Small soapbox here.

Immersion i define as suspension of disbelief. I feel a truly immersive game should appeal both visually, and technically, but i put more priority over "technically" then "visually". (insert: You can shine a turd, but it's still a turd metaphore here).

My last patch to TMO, was mostly with eyecandy. So i don't want anyone thinking im "anti-eye candy". But i had a moment in time where i drew the line.. actually, two moments in time. Both of which involve the kingpin of eyecandy.... the external camera. I have two beefs with it:

1.) Gameplay: It's a cheat when you consider you can gain a tactical picture that no WW2 sub skipper would have had. Want to know what that sonar contact is from 20KM away and never have to pop the scope to see? Go ahead, activate the camera.

2.) A modders point of view. If anyone remembers the sub on rails effect in Sh4, or the quiliting effect of seafoam? I was hashing away for a few days on this stuff when one night when i realized that all of the time i was devoting to visual asthetics, could have been spent fixing things more crucial to play. You could make the enviormental visuals look incredibly realistic from the bridge (where it most mattered IMO), but the instant the external camera came into play, it was all hosed, people would whine, and you'd have to spend MORE time on visual asthetics. And if you don't cater to the demand, then all your work is considered crap. After that, i never looked at enviormental stuff quite the same way again.

THE_MASK · 01-18-10, 11:23 PM

SH5 looks pretty damn immersive from the grahics/1st person/crew interactivity that i have seen so far . If the gameplay is as good then we have a winner .

01-12-10, 05:21 AM	#1
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Immersion, Immersion, Immersion This one's for you mookiemookie. Can't have too much of a good thing? Or can you? Is immersion the be all and end all or or just part of the enjoyment. Discuss: Last edited by TarJak; 01-12-10 at 06:52 AM.

01-12-10, 06:54 AM	#3
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	__________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

01-12-10, 02:36 PM	#5
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	<SS shoves TJ's head under the water> "How's THAT for immersion, bub?" __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

01-18-10, 10:16 AM	#11
subsimlee Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 55 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	Thanks IanC, My perspective was that of a sonarman aboard the boats, so like most i'm a babe in the woods when it comes to the broad perspective of a commander in the reality levels of our sims. I've enjoyed learning from those experienced in the SH series.......It has certainly helped in my sense of immersion! Last edited by subsimlee; 01-18-10 at 12:25 PM.

01-18-10, 06:08 PM	#12
V.C. Sniper Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 339 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	GF 100 SILENT HUNTER 5 WITH WATER SIMULATION AT LAST?? http://www.nvidia.com/object/gf100.html __________________ I only need one torpedo. Last edited by V.C. Sniper; 01-18-10 at 06:34 PM.

01-12-10, 05:45 AM	#2
Mikhayl Captain Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 485 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Once Destroyers are coming for you, you can never have enough of it

01-12-10, 06:56 AM	#4
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Ouch!

01-12-10, 02:53 PM	#6
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,383 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Immersion: LeoVampire ROW Tomi99 VIIc Engine room Racerboy's equally great Exhaust Smoke Diving Duck Open Hatch Rubini's wonderful Water Streams Evan82's Uniforms II OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams Gameplay, no one says it is not important, it is the heart of the game, but without "immersion", may as well play a board game. Immersion: No Immersion:

01-17-10, 11:16 AM	#9
subsimlee Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 55 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	Well guys, I agree and disagree with all of the above but the discussions might be better aimed at SH-6. The reality is that at this late date the die is already cast for SH-5. All we can hope for is the comprimises that Ubi has settled upon satisfy something of the multitude of desires expressed. Complete or close immersion is very difficult to achieve until you can experience the heat/cold, noise and SMELL of a conventional boat....( I served on British "A" and "O" boats out of Halifax in the sixties ) I,ve always found something to enjoy and something to wish for in all the SH series. I think that's what keeps us hooked! Fingers crossed......

01-18-10, 10:41 PM	#13
Reaves The Old Man Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,509 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I want laser guided torpedoes and invincibility with non depleting shells. Plus an instant action button that takes me directly to a firing solution position on a battleship. __________________

01-18-10, 11:06 PM	#14
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Small soapbox here. Immersion i define as suspension of disbelief. I feel a truly immersive game should appeal both visually, and technically, but i put more priority over "technically" then "visually". (insert: You can shine a turd, but it's still a turd metaphore here). My last patch to TMO, was mostly with eyecandy. So i don't want anyone thinking im "anti-eye candy". But i had a moment in time where i drew the line.. actually, two moments in time. Both of which involve the kingpin of eyecandy.... the external camera. I have two beefs with it: 1.) Gameplay: It's a cheat when you consider you can gain a tactical picture that no WW2 sub skipper would have had. Want to know what that sonar contact is from 20KM away and never have to pop the scope to see? Go ahead, activate the camera. 2.) A modders point of view. If anyone remembers the sub on rails effect in Sh4, or the quiliting effect of seafoam? I was hashing away for a few days on this stuff when one night when i realized that all of the time i was devoting to visual asthetics, could have been spent fixing things more crucial to play. You could make the enviormental visuals look incredibly realistic from the bridge (where it most mattered IMO), but the instant the external camera came into play, it was all hosed, people would whine, and you'd have to spend MORE time on visual asthetics. And if you don't cater to the demand, then all your work is considered crap. After that, i never looked at enviormental stuff quite the same way again.

01-18-10, 11:23 PM	#15
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	SH5 looks pretty damn immersive from the grahics/1st person/crew interactivity that i have seen so far . If the gameplay is as good then we have a winner .