A bunch of questions on aircraft

[gap]

As the title says, here are some long-standing doubts of mine that I never managed resolving:

1. Are aircraft (or any other AI units) able to use their non-visual sensors for spotting other AI units, or they are only effective against player's boat?
   
   
2. For airbase-spawned aircraft, do they need to be in the same base and/or airgroup to act coordinately (i.e. a group of bombers with their fighter escort)?
   
   
3. For airbase/carrier-spawned aircraft, is there any way to make some classes not to spawn at night or - conversely - to only spawn in night time?
   
   
4. For airbase/carrier-spawned aircraft, do they inherit their veterancy level from the unit they spawn from, or how else is their veterancy level determined?
   
   
5. For airbase/carrier-spawned aircraft with multiple armament loadouts, is there any way to predict which loadout will be actually used in different circumstances? Is that random, or how else the game is assigning them?
   
   
6. For airbases and carriers with multiple airgroups, do their airgroups need to be sorted sequentially according to their start date? Can an airgroup start before the previous airgroup is ended? In other words, can an airgroup have a start date which is earlier than previous group's end date?
   
   
7. Has anyone tried adding one or more airgroup(s) to any non-carrier sea unit? That would be useful for simulating CAM/MAC ships and scout planes aboard cruisers and battleships.

Any hint by some knowledgeable subsim mate would be much appreciated

[propbeanie]

From an SH4 perspective, but I am reasonably certain the SH5 uses the same type configuration, though it might add script-based configurations, so be sure and check for that, gap. In order of your list:

1. 1. Have not attempted to observe that. Interesting question, though they do seem to be capable
2. A strange set of circumstances, this one is (yoda-speak)... If you create a group with waypoints, they "follow" the leader of the group, just like ships, yet they do act somewhat independently after the initial phase of attack. As for the "spawned" planes, I have seen what appears to be a group of two planes act independently, with one (the closer plane) of the two attacking a ship, while the second does not (distance or "visual"). So again, They act like a "group", but they will seemingly act independently of each other, though if the one plane doesn't attack, the one that does will generally only do one "run", and then rejoin its companion and continue on its course. If both planes attack, then both will continue to attack until they run out of "ammunition", or get shot down. Short answer: I do not know... lol
3. Using independent "AirBases" with different AirGroups might be one way, but in SH4, the AirStrike config is the only file controlling what the percentage chance of a night attack is... I don't know if maybe a script in SH5 is available for that??
4. Yes. You want to set the spawning "AirBase", whether carrier or land-based to "Expert" (4) in order to have "Expert" planes. Anything less than an "Expert" plane usually results in crashes with dive bombers, or with turns. Even at "Expert" level, planes do not fly very well... but they can drop a bomb down an open hatch at 500 foot altitude while flying at 312 knots while flying upside-down... Luke Skywalker style...
5. The easy way to "predict" which loadout will be used is the "Default" designation in the config and equipment files. Again though, I don't know if SH5 scripts can change that?
6. The game expects one group to end before the other starts, and that they are sequentially set in all manner.
7. In SH4 this works, and I'm sure it does in SH5 also, in that anything with a "carrier" designation can "launch" or spawn an airplane, which generally takes roughly 20 minutes to occur (20km). So Type=8 and Type=9, as well as Type=18 and Type=19 can spawn airplanes. You do have to have properly configured AirGroups for them, with valid air platforms.

I am 99.9% certain there are more / better replies that will be forthcoming, and from SH5 people...

[gap]

Wow, I wasn't expecting so many answers that soon!
Thank you very much propbeanie, your wisdom places you on the ligh side of the Force, Yoda appreciates that

That said he (Yoda) still has some doubts regarding your replies that I would like to ask in his behalf, if you don't mind...

Originally Posted by propbeanie

If you create a group with waypoints, they "follow" the leader of the group, just like ships, yet they do act somewhat independently after the initial phase of attack. As for the "spawned" planes...

Well, my question was more elementary than your answer seems to imply; I will give you an example. Let's say that I have an enemy airbase in range of an U-boat bunker, for it to spawn airstrikes at random intervals. If the airbase has bombers and fighters in the same airgroup, will they attack all together? If the answer is no, I am afraid that the only way to simulated raids with escorted bombers would be by scripting them, but that would be a more "expensive" solution (both in therms of pc resources usage and of work require by the modder in order to set up the attacks) and not as random as the airbase-spawned strikes thing.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Using independent "AirBases" with different AirGroups might be one way, but in SH4, the AirStrike config is the only file controlling what the percentage chance of a night attack is... I don't know if maybe a script in SH5 is available for that??

I doubt that, but let's see if someone pops up with some idea. I know there is a global paparameter controlling the chance of aircraft spawning at night, but I don't see anything that might tell the game which aircraft should fly at night and which ones not. I am actually surprised that devs didn't think to add such a basic feature; a simple flag in aircraft cfg or sim file would have been enough

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Yes. You want to set the spawning "AirBase", whether carrier or land-based to "Expert" (4) in order to have "Expert" planes. Anything less than an "Expert" plane usually results in crashes with dive bombers, or with turns. Even at "Expert" level, planes do not fly very well... but they can drop a bomb down an open hatch at 500 foot altitude while flying at 312 knots while flying upside-down... Luke Skywalker style...

Roger that lol

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The easy way to "predict" which loadout will be used is the "Default" designation in the config and equipment files. Again though, I don't know if SH5 scripts can change that?

Indeed f you script aircraft in campaign you can specify whatever loadout you want, but from your answer I get that airbase/carrier-spawned aircraft will only use the default loadout. Is that correct?

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Type=8 and Type=9, as well as Type=18 and Type=19 can spawn airplanes. You do have to have properly configured AirGroups for them, with valid air platforms.

What about other sea unit types? I am mostly interested in types 6, 7, 10, 11 (capital ships other than carriers), 101, 102 and 108 (freighters and tankers)....

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by gap

Wow, I wasn't expecting so many answers that soon!
Thank you very much propbeanie, your wisdom places you on the ligh side of the Force, Yoda appreciates that

That said he (Yoda) still has some doubts regarding your replies that I would like to ask in his behalf, if you don't mind...


Well, my question was more elementary than your answer seems to imply; I will give you an example. Let's say that I have an enemy airbase in range of an U-boat bunker, for it to spawn airstrikes at random intervals. If the airbase has bombers and fighters in the same airgroup, will they attack all together? If the answer is no, I am afraid that the only way to simulated raids with escorted bombers would be by scripting them, but that would be a more "expensive" solution (both in therms of pc resources usage and of work require by the modder in order to set up the attacks) and not as random as the airbase-spawned strikes thing.
The game "intelligence" will send airplanes out randomly, and bases the amount sent as response, apparently on the type of target, such that a submarine usually "qualifies" for what seems to eventually be 7 airplanes. An "enemy" corvette might get a 1 or 2 plane response, a DD gets 2 or 3, etc. What Fifi, s7rikeback and I discovered in Fifi's SH4 Dark Waters was that Brest "qualified" for a near-continuous air attack, which would commence shortly (roughly 20 minutes) after the player spawned into the game and was leaving port. I do not remember what he did to minimize that... About the only way to "fix" that is to alter the AirStrike.cfg, make the nearby enemy airbases with smaller, shorter-ranged planes, and to script with either Groups / Units and / or RGG / Random Units, with what you do want to show and when. The shorter-ranged planes at "specialist" AirBases is something we've used in FotRSU also, in an attempt to minimize the "Normal" AirBases sending an air response from beyond a mountain range that only results in innumerable airplanes crashing into the "terrain" near the player's sub, resulting in a similar amount of "Survivors". I do not know if SH5 does similar or not. But in SH4, every plane crash has a chance to generate a "Survivor" pilot...


I doubt that, but let's see if someone pops up with some idea. I know there is a global paparameter controlling the chance of aircraft spawning at night, but I don't see anything that might tell the game which aircraft should fly at night and which ones not. I am actually surprised that devs didn't think to add such a basic feature; a simple flag in aircraft cfg or sim file would have been enough
Yes, it would have been nice, and I do not know of anyway to control that either. As you mention, perhaps someone else has an idea about this. The "tag" for that could be "is this plane equipped with flight radar?"...


Roger that lol



Indeed f you script aircraft in campaign you can specify whatever loadout you want, but from your answer I get that airbase/carrier-spawned aircraft will only use the default loadout. Is that correct?
That is correct. The game will use the "default" loadout, found listed first in the eqp file in SH4, usually with a "; Basic Loadout" comment. The cfg file will not list that loadout, but only the additional ones built for the plane. One way to counter that behavior is to do small clones, with the cloned plane having a different basic load-out (and name, of course), and then place both planes in the base's AirGroup. However, it is still a "chance" thing in that the game chooses which plane(s) to send based upon chance also... You might get a PBY plane one time, a Mustang the next, and then a B-24, all dependent upon what is in the AirGroup at that time, and a roll of the dice, in conjunction with plane range. This is SH4 behavior...I wonder how SH5 handles GR2 planes, as well as their load-outs?


What about other sea unit types? I am mostly interested in types 6, 7, 10, 11 (capital ships other than carriers), 101, 102 and 108 (freighters and tankers)....

Unfortunately in SH4, if it is NOT a CV-type, it will not generate an airplane, whether you have an AirGroup attached or not. So our cat ship and one of the aux cruisers with an airplane to launch are set to either Type=8 or Type=18 in FotRSU, and you will "see" a plane spawn after the player's sub is detected. The plane will not spawn within the "spawn range" though, but like all things 3D in the game, will do so beyond the "horizon".

[gap]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The game "intelligence" will send airplanes out randomly, and bases the amount sent as response, apparently on the type of target, such that a submarine usually "qualifies" for what seems to eventually be 7 airplanes. An "enemy" corvette might get a 1 or 2 plane response, a DD gets 2 or 3, etc.

Interesting, that's the first time I hear about such a feature. Makes me wonder whether the type of response is hardcoded in the game or rather if it can be modified via AI scripts

Originally Posted by propbeanie

What Fifi, s7rikeback and I discovered in Fifi's SH4 Dark Waters was that Brest "qualified" for a near-continuous air attack, which would commence shortly (roughly 20 minutes) after the player spawned into the game and was leaving port.

I see. That is obviously a major problem. Constant air strikes at each patrol start would be utterly unrelaistic and they might render the game unplayable. Your reply doens't entirely answer my original question though: what happens if a base/airgroup has more than one type of aircraft and all of them have a a range long enough for attacking a player base? Will they perform combined attacks, or they will come separately, maybe due to their different max speeds?

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I do not remember what he did to minimize that... About the only way to "fix" that is to alter the AirStrike.cfg, make the nearby enemy airbases with smaller, shorter-ranged planes, and to script with either Groups / Units and / or RGG / Random Units, with what you do want to show and when.

AirStrike.cfg parameters being global, I would let their editing for fine-tuning, once all the airbases/airgroups are set up. Playing with aircraft MaxRadius as the first task, seems to me the best approach. In SH5, as in SHIV, we can create as many "shallow clones" of the same unit as we want, so a valid startegy might be creating many copies of the same aircraft, each copy having a different radius and ammo loadout depending on the different roles that the said plane played in reality.

If "long-range" bombers and fighters are assigned to airbases with moderation and if, at the same time, we place in Allied territory many airbases with "short-ranged" aircraft, one might play with the global Air Strike Probability factor so that the chances of a bombing raid on player bases will be acceptably low (due to the small number of squadrons equipped with long-range aircraft) while the chances of an air attack against the player, when he nears enemy territory, will still be relatively high (due do the comparatively large number of airgroups which have short-range aircraft assigned).

I hope I made myself clear, but I am probably rephrasing the workaround that you, Fifi, s7rikeback, etc. have laready applied to SHIV and that you have summarized in your reply to me. I am wondering if Vecko has devided something similar for TWoS.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Yes, it would have been nice, and I do not know of anyway to control that either. As you mention, perhaps someone else has an idea about this. The "tag" for that could be "is this plane equipped with flight radar?"...

Indeed that would have been the cleanest implementation of such a feature...

Originally Posted by propbeanie

That is correct. The game will use the "default" loadout, found listed first in the eqp file in SH4, usually with a "; Basic Loadout" comment. The cfg file will not list that loadout, but only the additional ones built for the plane.

Thank you for confirming that. In other words, additional loadouts are not applied except for the planes that are scripted in campaign layers. A bit odd, but as you said there are workarounds to that...

Originally Posted by propbeanie

One way to counter that behavior is to do small clones, with the cloned plane having a different basic load-out (and name, of course), and then place both planes in the base's AirGroup.

That is something I already had in mind, but my (long-therm) plan is more ambitious.

With all the information on RAF squadrons we have available from books and websites, we have the possibility to replicate in game a (simplified) version of RAF's 1939-45 order of battle. My idea is to replace generic UK airbases currently featured in game with unique ones, each of them being placed on the SH5 map appropriately for representing one specific RAF station, with the squadrons and aircraft that in real WWII warfare are know to have been based there.

Of course not all the RAF bases and squadrons would be represented, but only the ones which were involved in anti-submarine and anti-shipping warfare, maritime patrol, coastal defense, etc. Each airgroup would represent a squadron or a combination of squadrons with the aicraft they actually operated with ranges, armament loadouts and sensors set to reflect as closely as possible the known duties of those squadrons.

That's a whole lot of work and I am not even sure that the game could handle so many airbases and air groups, but let me daydream of it

Originally Posted by propbeanie

However, it is still a "chance" thing in that the game chooses which plane(s) to send based upon chance also... You might get a PBY plane one time, a Mustang the next, and then a B-24, all dependent upon what is in the AirGroup at that time, and a roll of the dice, in conjunction with plane range. This is SH4 behavior...I wonder how SH5 handles GR2 planes, as well as their load-outs?

I am pretty confident that nothing major has changed on this respect from SHIV to SH5.

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Unfortunately in SH4, if it is NOT a CV-type, it will not generate an airplane, whether you have an AirGroup attached or not. So our cat ship and one of the aux cruisers with an airplane to launch are set to either Type=8 or Type=18 in FotRSU, and you will "see" a plane spawn after the player's sub is detected. The plane will not spawn within the "spawn range" though, but like all things 3D in the game, will do so beyond the "horizon".

That's a shame. The game has too few unit types, and each type as too many limitations relative to what it can do and what not, but we must live with it.

CAM and MAC ships can be set as escort carriers. They would fly the naval ensign whereas in reality, being commanded by a civil captain they would have sailed under the merchant ensign. There are workarounds to this, so that's only a minor issue, but the lack of airgroup support for battleships and cruisers annoys me big time lol

[gap]

I have one more question that I forgot to asking at post #1

8. Do aircraft assigned to a base need to be in the same national roster as the base itself? In other words: can I assign to an UK base an aicraft which is only found in the US roster, or I need to have two bases (one British and the other American) in the same place?

[propbeanie]

So long as they are an Allied plane (SH4), and there are different small clones for the various nationalities (with non-conflicting node IDs), you should be fine. In the SoWesPac area in FotRSU, there are several GB AirBases with various US, GB, AU & NZ planes, even some with the same plane model in a small clone, and they seem to spawn just fine - sometimes too much...

But we need more opinion / fact here, gap. Surely someone with more knowledge than the two of us combined can chime in and help us out! The more discussion, the more knowledge! Enquiring minds want to know (more)!

[gap]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

So long as they are an Allied plane (SH4), and there are different small clones for the various nationalities (with non-conflicting node IDs), you should be fine. In the SoWesPac area in FotRSU, there are several GB AirBases with various US, GB, AU & NZ planes, even some with the same plane model in a small clone, and they seem to spawn just fine - sometimes too much...

Good to know thanks

Originally Posted by propbeanie

But we need more opinion / fact here, gap. Surely someone with more knowledge than the two of us combined can chime in and help us out! The more discussion, the more knowledge! Enquiring minds want to know (more)!

Yes, sure! Hoepefully some fellow subsimmers will share their thougths with us. While we wait for them to chime in, let me thank you once more for your illuminating answers propbeanie! I owe you a favour or two

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

I have one more question that I forgot to asking at post #1

8. Do aircraft assigned to a base need to be in the same national roster as the base itself? In other words: can I assign to an UK base an aicraft which is only found in the US roster, or I need to have two bases (one British and the other American) in the same place?

Lajes Aurbase (UK) has currently B-17 (only existing in US roster) asigned to its air wing in TWoS. If this actualy works in campaign ( someone with a savegame near Lajes after 10.1943 could confirm it) then yes, you can.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Lajes Aurbase (UK) has currently B-17 (only existing in US roster) asigned to its air wing in TWoS. If this actualy works in campaign ( someone with a savegame near Lajes after 10.1943 could confirm it) then yes, you can.

Thank you for confirming that kapuhy

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Thank you for confirming that kapuhy

Just to clarify, I didn't test whether it really works - I'm too careless to ever survive in campaign to 1943

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Just to clarify, I didn't test whether it really works - I'm too careless to ever survive in campaign to 1943

Hahah, don't tell me... I think I never made it to January 1940 in campaign, but since I started modding SH5 I stopped actually playing it...

By the way: Open Horizons II has only generic airfields, so the Lajes airbase in TWoS must have been an addition by Vecko himself. Maybe we should ask him whether he actually tested in game the spawning of (US) aicraft from that (British) base.

[gap]

Work I am currently doing



I am at squadron No. 31... Initially I thought that only Coastal Command and Fleet Air Arm squadrons were of some interest for our game, but I came to realize that even other RAF commands had an involvement in WWII naval warfare. Still a whole lot of work is in front of me lol
Anyone wanting to help?

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Work I am currently doing

I am at squadron No. 31... Initially I thought that only Coastal Command and Fleet Air Arm squadrons were of some interest for our game, but I came to realize that even other RAF commands had an involvement in WWII naval warfare. Still a whole lot of work is in front of me lol
Anyone wanting to help?

Wow Hats off to you, it's a lot of work but when complete, it will be a goldmine of info for any modder or developer working on WW2 naval warfare themed games.

I considered doing something just like this (though on a smaller scale) after I finish importing missing planes, so I'd be happy to help - but atm I have my hands full with trying to get those planes into game. I did however some research already and if you'd like, I can send it to you or post a summary here - maybe it will be of use.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Wow Hats off to you, it's a lot of work but when complete, it will be a goldmine of info for any modder or developer working on WW2 naval warfare themed games.

Yes, mostly a compendium of data gathered from different sources and displayed on a chronogram. Hopefully my work will ease the usage of that data in SH5 or in any other WWII-themed simulation. I had planned it long ago, but your work on new aircraft gave me the incentive I needed to continue this project

Originally Posted by kapuhy

I considered doing something just like this (though on a smaller scale) after I finish importing missing planes, so I'd be happy to help - but atm I have my hands full with trying to get those planes into game.

I agree on your choice of focusing on the 3D modelling / texturing work. Unfortunately it is easier for me proceeding with my own data-collection work squadron by squadron, so until I finish with it I won't be able telling all the locations (and timeframes) that your freshly created aircraft should be used on.

What I can do right away, is listing some of the planes relevant to SH5 but still missing from it that where most commonly used in the maritime patrol / reconnaissance / anti-shipping / convoy protection roles. Whenever you will be ready for working on a new set of aircraft, just get in touch if you feel that you need ideas on which models you should start from.

One last note: as you might have noticed, the sources I have available are detailed to the level of aircraft variants. In most cases, those variants differed externally from each other just for a few details (gun outfit, turrets, control surfaces' shape, cowling/nose shape, air intakes, exausts, etc). If it is not too much work for you, my advise is to keep your models as simple/generic as possible by keeping the "variable" parts - especially guns - separated from the main models. That would enable us to easily customize the new aicraft (even at a later stage) by adding/switching parts via eqp. files.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

I did however some research already and if you'd like, I can send it to you or post a summary here - maybe it will be of use.

Yes sure, share it here please!