SH-60 Help

[btaft]

Hi I am relatively new to DW and from some of the advice that I received earlier am starting to learn the SH-60. I have working on the Helo Demo scenario. I have been able to do the following

Basically I have been using two lines of Sonobuoys to form an array and then listening on those until the signature of the Victor III comes up. When it does I switch the two closest buoys to directional mode and get the two bearings to triangulate the position. I then wait about 10 minutes to get a second position. After that I fly to the first point and then fly along a path that goes through the second point with the MAD deployed until I get the MAD signature. This tells me that I am essentially over the top of the sub. On my last try I launched a fish and it went off on its own searching in vain well away from the Victor III. I had initially set a run out bearing about the bearing I was traveling with a depth of 100ft with active pinging.

My questions are

1) Are these good tactics in finding and engaging a sub from a helo. If not are their better approaches

2) I have a feeling my torpedo presets are not ideal for the situation. Would it be better to have it in a circular pattern and drop it as soon as I get the MAD alarm. Or should I back up along the course and launch from further away down a heading?

3) Are the torpedo preset bearing relative to the helo or are they global

4) Any other help on presets is appreciated.

Thanks,

Brett

[OneShot]

Your basic approach isnt so bad, just some detail work needs to be done. Since I'm to lazy to do a walkthrough here again, try reading up on this link : http://www.commanders-academy.com/wi..._Demo_Tutorial

At the bottom you will find the PDF version which even includes the pictures (I have to add them to the wiki yet).

Cheers
OS

[btaft]

Thanks One Shot. It was a good read.

Regards,

Brett

[Hans_Brux]

Hi! Not being here for long time, this is one of my first post here (have done some posting in SH3 forum before). But I have moved "few" years forward, so for now, I am aboard DW, entering the digital warfare era So I am also new to this game, like you Its really interesting to compare the warfare back then and now, but I have to admit that my SH3 knowledge is by no menas useless at DW! But, as a DW newby I chose MH60 as my starting platform, like you, and have learned to handle it really well (at leats I think ), so I can answer your questions:

1. Your approach is basically fine, I use the same, your issue are the details (and DW is about details, like all REAL Sims). Firstly, use three buoys to triangulate your prey (TRIangulate=three points or more, using of two buoys could be named like "Duangulation" ). I know, I know, your approach worked on this Victor, but it will come short as soon as you will have to track zig-zaging sub. Using three point tracking is MUCH more accurate (off course, it depend on buoys positions, sometimes 2 point tracking can be more acurrate than 4 point tracking, but this is extreme, not rule!). Secondly, cut short your triangulate period-10 mnts is so loooooong time...imagine that this Victor won't go straight but will be zig/zaging...your approach will be useless because you'll have two trackers with 10 mnts gap and at the time you'll reach the second tracker by flying down the line, the sub could be off the line already because it changed course, so you'll find nothing. So, cut down the gap between triangulation - 2 mnts is fine, but 30sec is also necesary in some cases (Sub rapidly changing course, evading your or someone elses torpedoes, turning away from active sonar a.s.o.....). Basically, the less time between tracking, the better! What you wanna know is what the sub skipper will do next minute, two....and you can find out this by placing as many trackers as posibble, so you can predict his next step (for example, when zig-zaging, firstly he steers left, then right, then again left....so there is high probability that his next steer will be again on right side). With enough trackers, you can guess where he'll be let's say in five minutes, and wait for him and his MAD response there.
2. Flying down the line and getting MAD response is good tactic, but basically its not so easy as in this DEMO (where the Sub is going straight) so you have to slightly change your approach (mentioned in the point above), finding MAD in helo is sometimes really tricky . So, lets predict you get MAD-now you've got two options: first-imediately launch your torpedo with circle pattern preset and depth setting depending on sub depth, layer position a.s.o. (in this demo, there is no layer do feel free to not change the defaults, only set the pattern). With little bit of luck you should hit the sub. Use this tactic only when you are pushed by time (for example the sub is closing fastly to the convoy you are protecting) and have to act fast. This tactic is also good on those pesky Kilos, because tracking them is really hard and once you got MAD, you've to get max use of it (you can get another MAD later, but then it could be already late). So, this was the firts option. The second one is much more precise and lethal MOST times. Once you get MAD, immediately stop, go to hover and stream your dipping sonar. Use active and you get his exact position-he won't be far away max 1000yds (of course, depending on his speed). Simply said, although you'll tell him by pinging him that you are there, before the sub captain will shout "knuckle left/right!!", your torpedoes will be already in the water (assign them to target-acive ping response- in the ATO,set RTE to zero, because as soon as the torpedo hits the water, it will "see" its prey), no more than 30 second to impact....to little time for the sub captain to react. Use this tactic when you have those 45+ seconds to stop, stream a ping, otherwise use the first tactic I mentioned above.
3. They are global! This is most probably the reason why your torpedo missed, your runout baring setting was (I guess) 000, but the torpedo did'nt go straight form you, but it instead went north (I did same mistake as you for the firts time
4. I skip this one, alright? So many words from me already here!

Anyway, I'am glad that I'am not the only one who found this game as far as now, so I can share my piece of knowledge with someone else. Looking forward for next posting!

P.S.: I'am not native-english speaking man, so I apologize for eventuall errors
P.S.2: When you master the helo, I recommend you to continue with P3

[Hans_Brux]

Damn, late again! But I forgive you OneShot, but only because of your superb P3 manual!

[btaft]

Thanks as well Hans. Your english was just fine for me.

One question though with regards to the time between marks. Wouldn't the longer period be good for determining the overall base course as opposed to the course about which the sub is zig-zagging about?

Thanks,

BT

[Hans_Brux]

Firstly, I want to say I'am glad my post was of any use to you Next, I have to clear out some terminology I used. I know you understood my post, but here where I live we say "Order makes friends" I talked about trackers. My use of this term in official terminology = intersection of two or more LOBs, we mark this point (area) with marker. So, that's it I highly recommend to write down the time when the marker was created bellow the marker. This is crutial for getting the target speed and for getting general idea where the sub is (if first two markers with 2 mnts gap are distanced 1000yds, there is high probability that in next 2mnts sub will be somewhere in the area within 1000 yds from 2nd marker a.s.o...). To answer your question: yeah, it's possible. But it's much better to draw those 2 mnts markers, make it five times - you get 5 markers, first and last one with your desired 10 mnts gap and you can still get benefit from those three left By making only two markers (10 mnts gap) you can seriously miss (especially on zig-zaging sub), because you don't know if those positions were extremes or not. Yeah, it's all about MATH!! The best way to get really accurate idea of target general course is to make AT LEAST five markers (let's say with 2 mnts gap, but the gap can be longer, if you have enough time to track the sub - in P3 in the middle of the ocean, for example ) and then draw a line, which distance (rectangular) from each marker will be +- equal - in math this is called aproximation. The line is the general course of your target. I think now you see where the problem with your 10 mnts gap is - as we place the markers, we do it with errors (unavoidably) and two markers are simply not enough to correct those errors (offsets) in the above written process (aproximation). Your 2 markers can be off (lets say each by 200 yds from real target position), so the line connecting them could be seriously off his real course. Next case is when your markers are generally good (little error), but were placed unfortunately at the farthest point from the general course of the sub (point where sub turns back towards the "line" of general course). You see that if the second point will be made on the other side of this line (again extreme for example), the line between those two point will be faaaar away from the real general bearing So, that's it

[btaft]

Thanks One Shot and Hans. Basically I followed most of what was suggested. I narrowed down with the dipping sonar and buoys then closed in with the MAD, detected, and streamed the dipping to get an accurate bearing with active mode and sent a fish his way and sent it to the bottom. I know it is a pretty easy scenario but it certainly provided some lessons none the less. Next I will either do the P3 or the Kilo demo. Thanks again.

Regards,

BT

[A-Ganger]

It really doesn't matter what tactics you use on the MH-60 cos the MK54 and 50 torpedoes are stupid!
They wouldn't hit an aircraft carrier if you dropped one on its flight deck lol

The worse torpedoes ever made.

I just played a quick play,. shot 2 mk50's/1 mk54 all together at Song that was at 85ft. Torpedo found it, ran right behind it, turned east and did a giant loop and never turned around to re-attack...It just kept going straight. And this is with Truth's turned on cheating.


They are just horrible in this game! And I quit a bit ago after playing 4 quick missions on same map with worse results. Not once could I hit a sub or a ship.

[rentacow]

I use the following approach to quickly find and destroy a lone submarine:



Step One, MAD sensor deployed and on. Speed to high, altitude to MAD search. I will use the "C" key to quickly set a course on the map* to the point where I want to start looking for the sub. Finally I will configure all of my torpedoes in advance for the following release: CIRCLE SEARCH, set a ceiling to protect surface ships, set a max depth so the torp doesnt run into the bottom, select a search mode and appropriate speed for that mode and current conditions, etc.
* Avoid using waypoints with the helo. Give the pilot a course directly so that when you order stop and hover, the pilot will STAY hovering while you can orient the helo in step 4. Accidentally moving any waypoint will cause the pilot to resume course, potentially while the dipping sonar is deployed.

Step Two, over the initial search area(s), I'll drop a BT bouy and one or two sonobouys as needed, but I don't intend to "find" the sub with sonobouys. The purpose of these bouys is simply to determine if an area (~2 mile radius) of ocean is safe to "Stop-n-Dip" over.

Keep moving while dropping these bouys! Slow down to medium speed or even slow to make sharp turns and clear the general area while the bouys connect. Gain a few hundred feet of altitude now to ensure you stay in range of the bouy data link, and to keep the MAD sensor from catching a wave at the lower speeds. You should at least keep moving until you know there are no threats immediately near the bouys. Those bouys make splashes, and if there's one thing that a sneaky submarine captain hates more than helicopters, it's littering.

Step Three, now I have a nice safe place to go hover over and deploy my dipping sonar. This is how I intend to find the enemy sub. It's a VERY badass sensor. This baby can hear a nuke sub up to something like 20 miles away in optimal conditions. Realistically you can expect 5-8 miles reliably. It has narrowband capability for getting a positive ID.

If I don't hear the target near the initial search area(s), I will go back to step 2 and clear a new search area with bouys as needed.

Step Four, The dipping sensor will give me a passive line of bearing to the ID'd target. I will order the pilot to that course while I reel in the dip and re-establish MAD search altitude. Need to work quickly now before that bearing line gets too cold. Once the dipper is clear of the water, I'm ordering "warp drives engage" top speed.

Step Five, I'm using the camera pod to keep an eye out for surface vessels or anything which could set off the MAD in error, and wait. If there is no joy within 20 miles, go back to step 3. Try "leading the target" a bit more or less on the next pass.

When I hear "MAD! MAD! MAD!" and see nothing on the surface made of metal...
Weapons were setup in step one, so all that's left to do is click the weapon release button while flying clear of the area, maintaining at all times the warp 10 velocity from step 4. The target will be really pissed off when he hears the fish and may blow ballast, so I always want to mind the 3 mile SAM radius.

Bonus Tips:

The 3 Mile SAM radius is exceedingly important anytime you are outside the ASM missile coverage range of your fleet or home ship. During ASW all of your tactics must be mindful of this. Making a splash while hovering, or using your dipping sonar over an unknown or hostile piece of ocean is not safe.

The RA mod allows you to specify LEFT or RIGHT turning CIRCLE SEARCH pattern. You could set up at least 1 torpedo for LEFT search and 1 for RIGHT, then you can conveniently drop the one which is most appropriate for the engagement (enemy evading to the left or right).

The MAD sensor will alert on your dropped torpedo, don't get confused by this. Manually drop this contact to prevent map clutter.

Don't drop the target MAD contact, Do place a marker over it. If you get a second MAD hit on that sub later on, the contact will update automatically on the map. Then you can plot the targets motion between the points.

While hovering, you will still see SOME indicated airspeed depending on your orientation to the wind. Be mindful of this when determining if you are slow enough to deploy the dipping sonar.