America's atrophied defence industry

[Skybird]

https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/...rial-base-now/


Thius must worry weurope, too, since even while America'S itnerest in Europoe is in delcine, Eurpope still vitally depends on American military support - a dysbalance that I do not expect to change during the rest of my lifespan, and beyond.

[Jimbuna]

Europe have relied on the US for far too long and will have to accept whatever fate comes their way.

[mapuc]

I fully understand him-It's time Europe start to act on its own-Start walking alone.

Markus

[les green01]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Europe have relied on the US for far too long and will have to accept whatever fate comes their way.

got to agree with Jim on this one especially how folks over there like to slam the old US then when their fat is in the fire they start screaming for us

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by les green01

got to agree with Jim on this one especially how folks over there like to slam the old US then when their fat is in the fire they start screaming for us

...that would be
Les Miserables-1914 &1944! and after Dien Bien Phu...C'est le mess of most of the 20th century...on an upnote in today's WSJ though, Germany's Rhinemetall (builders of Leopard tanks) stock is leaping 17%, so investors are happy

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by les green01

got to agree with Jim on this one especially how folks over there like to slam the old US then when their fat is in the fire they start screaming for us

Take for instance when it was mentioned we should leave NATO unless some European countries ponied up at least the minimum set contributions to NATO defenses. Oh the mocking laughter and great wailing and nashing of teeth over that one.

Anyway, unless there is some catastrophic failure which degrades U.S. capabilities to maintain its hegemony in the region we are not going anywhere no matter what the freeloaders say. As for this idea of broken supply chains and limited natural resources are affecting U.S. military material readiness. I have to ask then what the hell are we spending $850,000,000,000 dollars on every year?

Personally I don’t think our problem is so much material readiness, the more pressing is recruiting and retention of personnel.

[mapuc]

There was a reason to why he demanded the Europeans NATO member to increase their payment to NATO, so it was 2% of their BNP.

We are grown-up now and not a little child anymore.

Does this mean I want USA to leave NATO-Of course not, I want Europe to take care of a conventional war by them self the first 1-2 weeks before help comes.

Nuclear-Well here I want USA be on the front row.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

There was a reason to why he demanded the Europeans NATO member to increase their payment to NATO, so it was 2% of their BNP.

We are grown-up now and not a little child anymore.

Does this mean I want USA to leave NATO-Of course not, I want Europe to take care of a conventional war by them self the first 1-2 weeks before help comes.

Nuclear-Well here I want USA be on the front row.

Markus

I’m assuming the phrase “not a little child anymore” you think it’s time Europe spend and develop its own army or defensive force. Hey, so do I! But I just don’t see that happening anytime soon, hell some European countries have trouble just meeting the 2% minimum contribution to NATO. The other problem I think is, that even though European Union sounds really kewl and progressive and all. It’s hardly unified, too many old borders, rivalry’s and big chiefs trying to get one over on the other squabbling over centuries old slights and accusations.

Plus I think you have a huge migrant problem to deal with that’s gonna cost you your culture and a truckload of money.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I’m assuming the phrase “not a little child anymore” you think it’s time Europe spend and develop its own army or defensive force. Hey, so do I! But I just don’t see that happening anytime soon, hell some European countries have trouble just meeting the 2% minimum contribution to NATO. The other problem I think is, that even though European Union sounds really kewl and progressive and all. It’s hardly unified, too many old borders, rivalry’s and big chiefs trying to get one over on the other squabbling over centuries old slights and accusations.

Plus I think you have a huge migrant problem to deal with that’s gonna cost you your culture and a truckload of money.

You got it right.
After WWII Europe was smashed and on it's knees after 6 years fighting.
Europe was almost a helpless child- Up to the 70's or 80's Europe would be in need of military assisten if Russia attacked us.

From 70/80s we should have started to create a NATO within NATO-A European NATO cooperation.

The 90/20's came with peace in the wind from east. So Europe began to cut down on their military cost-Denmark went from 1.6-Something in 1995 to 1.1-something in 2010(if I remember correctly)

Now Europe is paying the price.

migration problems-I believe we both are having huge problems with it.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Not everyone Markus, the UK being a prime example.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Not everyone Markus, the UK being a prime example.

I stand corrected Jim, there is some NATO countries in Europe who use 2% or more of their BNP.

Denmark and Sweden isn't among those.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Not many are or do.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

You got it right.
After WWII Europe was smashed and on it's knees after 6 years fighting.
Europe was almost a helpless child- Up to the 70's or 80's Europe would be in need of military assisten if Russia attacked us.

From 70/80s we should have started to create a NATO within NATO-A European NATO cooperation.

The 90/20's came with peace in the wind from east. So Europe began to cut down on their military cost-Denmark went from 1.6-Something in 1995 to 1.1-something in 2010(if I remember correctly)

Now Europe is paying the price.

migration problems-I believe we both are having huge problems with it.

Markus

Honestly I think the United States prefers not to ever see a European Union military force. Makes a great argument for a perpetual U.S. military presence to maintain and extend our regional hegemony, which is paramount to our own survival.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I have to ask then what the hell are we spending $850,000,000,000 dollars on every year?

Indeed.

Personally I don’t think our problem is so much material readiness, the more pressing is recruiting and retention of personnel.

Ammo is a problem for sure, smart ammo I mean. Also, navy platforms.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Honestly I think the United States prefers not to ever see a European Union military force. Makes a great argument for a perpetual U.S. military presence to maintain and extend our regional hegemony, which is paramount to our own survival.

I could swear that many, many, many years ago (in the wake of the debates of the 2003 war) when I pointed at the contradiction of demanding Europe to be strong but not having a strategic interest for Europe being strong, you gave me hot fire in return and said that I was absurd.