Bloodbath in Egypt

eddie · 08-15-13, 12:48 PM

Over 500 dead so far. Wasn't this the reason they threw out Morsi?

http://news.msn.com/world/after-hund...ew-uncertainty

Jimbuna · 08-15-13, 01:15 PM

This could well end up turning into a civil war.

kranz · 08-15-13, 01:28 PM

When they put Mubarak into prison my grandfather said that some nations have to be kept on a very short leash. If not, everything falls.
Well, seems like he was right.

CaptainHaplo · 08-15-13, 01:44 PM

So basically a whole bunch of Muslim Brotherhood members, supporters and associated family have been killed. A few others, but the vast majority being the above - folks who press for the repression of women, Shariah law and the execution of anyone who does not follow their Islamic creed.

My tears of sorrow are insufficient to even fill a thimble.

Skybird · 08-15-13, 01:57 PM

From the moment on when the West helped the fundamentalists into power, none of the events, by their sequence , really came as a surprise. Not the attempt by the religious to abuse democracy to install a fundamentalist state, not the military stepping onto the scene, and not the pogroms the MB now runs against the Coptian Christians (once again).

There are worse scenarios for Egypt than a military ruling.

From an American, European and Israeli perspective, anything is better than a fundamentalist regime establishing its power in Egypt. I strongly recommend to learn - finally learn! - from the examples set by Turkey, Tunisia, Libya and Syria. We should only consider our options for influencing if the fundamentalists come back to power. Unfortunately, Europeans so far act exactly by the opposite, and Obama is manouvering.

What is needed again, is a relatively stable Egypt that keeps the religious in check. Like Mubarak did. I know the military is corrupted in itself to quite some degree. But that is the far lesser evil. Ideological and idealistic maximum demands will not help the situation. What is needed from a Western POV is Realpolitik and a healthy amount of remembering our own and Israel's interests.

Beyond that, this is an issue the Egyptians have to deal with and to solve - it is their conflict, so let them run the show. Let them do it, and let us stay out as long as not our vital own interests are affected. In solutions bringing the fundamentalists into power we shall not have the smallest interest.

Oberon · 08-15-13, 01:58 PM

Anti-Muslim sentiments on the third post.

Stay classy GT.

Religion or no religion, the situation in Egypt is spiralling out of control, and with a vast portion of the worlds trade going through the Suez and the possibility of this creating a ripple effect as a sort of anti-Arab Spring, it's a situation that's got a lot of people quite concerned, and rightfully so. This is quite possibly the most important event to happen to Egypt since, well, at the very least the Yom Kippur war, but I'd go back even further to the Second World War, or beyond.

BossMark · 08-15-13, 02:02 PM

Me thinks this going to turn into a full scale civil war, but hopes to god I am wrong.

Skybird · 08-15-13, 02:09 PM

Oberon, the Arab Anti-Spring already started long before. Wherever, the Spring broke out, it ended with the fundamentalists claiming power and starting to erode the democratic principles that brought them there to establish a Shariah-based regime. They try it in Tunisia. In Libya. In Syria. In Egypt. Egypt is not the beginning of that Anti-Spring. It's just the latest spring-breaker turning into winter. Without the fundamentalists abusing their power over the past year, the military would not be on the streets today.

A fundamentalist regime is no expression of a functional democracy - it is the end of democracy. Fundamentalism, and democracy and humanism cannot go together. They are mutually exclusive.

CaptainHaplo · 08-15-13, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Anti-Muslim sentiments on the third post.

Oberon - there is a distinct difference between anti-Muslim sentiments and anti-extremist sentiments. As a Christian, I understand that not all Muslims are extremists. While their religion says they should be, not all are. Many are in fact, moderate. Just like I am a "moderate" Christian, since I don't believe we should go around stoning or otherwise executing gay people. There are extremists in every religion - but Islam has more than "its fair share". Just as I would speak out against a Christian extremist (like the morons who kill doctors because they do abortions) - I will speak out against Muslim extremists who would kill you and I because we were not followers of their religion.

Call that a lack of class if you like. People like that give up their status as humans when they feel a requirement to murder innocents - in my book at least. I'd say choosing to commit murder and terrorism in the name of getting laid by a bunch of virgins in the afterlife is a little "less classy".

08-15-13, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Over 500 dead so far. Wasn't this the reason they threw out Morsi?

No, its the reason they threw out Mubarak.

Military dictatorships do what military dictatorships do, slaughtering local civilians and foreign journalists is just par for the course and is essential to "promote" democracy.

Or from a different angle.
Obama is simply protecting American jobs. If he didn't give the military dictatorship the US tax payers money the military dictatorship couldn't spend it on American made weapons.

The sad truth though is that the only people who are really going to benefit from this stupid chain of events is the fundamentalist nuts. Which is funny really since the military dictatorship is supposed to be getting rid of them not boosting them.

Quote:

Without the fundamentalists abusing their power over the past year, the military would not be on the streets today.

Without the military dictatorship over the past 30 years abusing their power the fundy muppets wouldn't have done so well in any election.

vienna · 08-15-13, 03:52 PM

Quote:

I understand that not all Muslims are extremists. While their religion says they should be...

This may be a bit of a false understanding of Muslim teachings. Many Muslim holy scholars do not interpret the Koran as speciying a "required" waging of "holy war" in the military sense. This is a common misconception among many Christians and much held by some Christians who might also be called "extremists". One of the lessons I learned in Catholic shool (of all places) was the Muslim faith was not out ot "get Christians" and most Muslims did not support the extremist views. School was where I first heard of the phrase "People of the Book" in reference to those of other faiths whose beliefs came from the Old and New Testaments. Here is an article on the subject from the websit OnIslam.net (I like to research and understand the facts before I question someone else's beliefs):

http://www.onislam.net/english/readi...the-quran.html

I know some people, even after reading the article will still maintain their notions, but I thought it might help to at least clarify some of the gray areas...

<O>

Skybird · 08-15-13, 04:26 PM

The old lie about Islam'S claimed tolerance for the people of the book. Oh my. Like it is a bad idea to ask the pope about the worth of the Catholic dogma and hoping for an objective answer, it also is a bad idea to ask Islamic scholars about whether Islam is good or bad. OF COURSE they say it is good and nice and friendly. Like, of course, the pope sees no wring in Catholicism.

Maybe better get your information from scientific researchers or any other, non-biased, more objective source.

Alos, check whether history is in conformity with your claims, or not. Some checking of numbers of who kills who more often in the present and in history, and how things are for minorities in Islamic countries in modern times and in past times, usually would make people rethink such claims before they voice them. But something tells me it would not concern you at all.

I do not repeat what I have preached so often in the past. I only cut it short and say this: people of the book are not to be wiped out, but are to be held in discrimination, as second class people, with limited rights, and under the ruling of their Musli masters. They are to pay protection money and shou,d be made aware all the time that they suffer these discmrination as Allah'S piunmsihement for them over the refusal to convert to Islam. Islam knows no tolerance and multicultural coexistence, only submission and subjugation, and its own undisputed rule.

People not of the book, are to convert, or are to be killed.

The Catholic church hates atheists, for they refuse to surrender to the churches control and claim for power and privileges, and it wants to win back terrain it has lost in past centuries to secularism and humanism. For them, even needing to share power with Islam is better, than to accept atheism and secularism. Better believe in Allah , than to not believe in theistic dogma at all. This explains why the church remains silent over the ongoing pogroms against Christian minorities in practically all Muslim world, and even whole genocides committed against Christian ethnicities in some places. Ethnic, religious and cultural minorities are systematically cleansed in all places where Islam settled down since slam reached those places. Since centuries. Since all beginning of Islam. Until today.

vienna · 08-15-13, 05:03 PM

Believe me, many things concern me...

Your grammar and spelling (or lack thereof) are a concern...

Rabidity and the spewing of rote responses is also a concern...

The old lie about "People of the Book"? Odd, I wonder if anyone has investgated the veracity of "do unto others", etc.? All religions can and have and will be accused of lies, duplicity, and outright ignorance of their basic tenets. Those of any faith who are knowledgeable of the tenets of their beliefs will follow them. Those who are not will pervert the ideals to satisfy the own base motives. Several years ago, I read a book on comparative religions (something you might want look into). The book listed various fundamental texts from various religions side by side and compared the similarities and differences. There was one portion that started with the New Testament quote "Do unto others...". Oddly enough, there was corresponding admonitions in virtually every other base text or teaching of virtually every other faith. It appear humanity would be better served if the 'believers' followed the texts rather than the 'teachers'...

If you wish to keep a 'scorecard' of 'kills', keep in mind Christianity predates Islam by some 600 years and the Jewish faith predates both by couple of millenia BCE. If you tally all the 'kills' before the CE, then add all the kills there after, the Muslim world has some catching up to do; and, recall, over 70 million died in the waging of WW1 & WW2, most of them 'good' Christians killing other 'good' Christians...

I do not condone any killing for religious reasons and I am not paticularly keen on killing for any other reasons, althogh I do believe there are times when there is no choice. Religion is a choice, at its base, and to use it to justify 'ungodly' acts is itself ungodly...

eddie · 08-15-13, 05:09 PM

Well, the body count has passed 600 now. And the Brotherhood is calling for a million people to join a march on Friday.

How high will the body count go now?

Bubblehead1980 · 08-15-13, 05:55 PM

Normally I would not support a government taking such hardline action, but Morsi was deposed by the military at the will of the people.Now his die hard, brainwashed supporters are out in force.Sadly, they need to be kept down, hope it works out, don't need the islamists in control over there.Sadly, the US President is on the wrong side of course, supporting the brotherhood.

This is basically what it would be like in the US if obama was deposed, impeached etc., The left would get ignorant masses to cause havoc as the muslim brotherhood is doing.

08-15-13, 12:48 PM	#1
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Bloodbath in Egypt Over 500 dead so far. Wasn't this the reason they threw out Morsi? http://news.msn.com/world/after-hund...ew-uncertainty

08-15-13, 01:15 PM	#2
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,481 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	This could well end up turning into a civil war. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-15-13, 01:44 PM	#4
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	So basically a whole bunch of Muslim Brotherhood members, supporters and associated family have been killed. A few others, but the vast majority being the above - folks who press for the repression of women, Shariah law and the execution of anyone who does not follow their Islamic creed. My tears of sorrow are insufficient to even fill a thimble. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

08-15-13, 01:57 PM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,605 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	From the moment on when the West helped the fundamentalists into power, none of the events, by their sequence , really came as a surprise. Not the attempt by the religious to abuse democracy to install a fundamentalist state, not the military stepping onto the scene, and not the pogroms the MB now runs against the Coptian Christians (once again). There are worse scenarios for Egypt than a military ruling. From an American, European and Israeli perspective, anything is better than a fundamentalist regime establishing its power in Egypt. I strongly recommend to learn - finally learn! - from the examples set by Turkey, Tunisia, Libya and Syria. We should only consider our options for influencing if the fundamentalists come back to power. Unfortunately, Europeans so far act exactly by the opposite, and Obama is manouvering. What is needed again, is a relatively stable Egypt that keeps the religious in check. Like Mubarak did. I know the military is corrupted in itself to quite some degree. But that is the far lesser evil. Ideological and idealistic maximum demands will not help the situation. What is needed from a Western POV is Realpolitik and a healthy amount of remembering our own and Israel's interests. Beyond that, this is an issue the Egyptians have to deal with and to solve - it is their conflict, so let them run the show. Let them do it, and let us stay out as long as not our vital own interests are affected. In solutions bringing the fundamentalists into power we shall not have the smallest interest. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-15-13, 02:02 PM	#7
BossMark Fleet Admiral Join Date: May 2011 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire Posts: 15,272 Downloads: 278 Uploads: 0	Me thinks this going to turn into a full scale civil war, but hopes to god I am wrong. __________________ Never trust the Tories look what Thatcher and Major did in the 80s and 90s and look what the wicked witch May is doing now doing now

08-15-13, 01:28 PM	#3
kranz The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,430 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	When they put Mubarak into prison my grandfather said that some nations have to be kept on a very short leash. If not, everything falls. Well, seems like he was right.

08-15-13, 01:58 PM	#6
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Anti-Muslim sentiments on the third post. Stay classy GT. Religion or no religion, the situation in Egypt is spiralling out of control, and with a vast portion of the worlds trade going through the Suez and the possibility of this creating a ripple effect as a sort of anti-Arab Spring, it's a situation that's got a lot of people quite concerned, and rightfully so. This is quite possibly the most important event to happen to Egypt since, well, at the very least the Yom Kippur war, but I'd go back even further to the Second World War, or beyond.

08-15-13, 02:09 PM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,605 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Oberon, the Arab Anti-Spring already started long before. Wherever, the Spring broke out, it ended with the fundamentalists claiming power and starting to erode the democratic principles that brought them there to establish a Shariah-based regime. They try it in Tunisia. In Libya. In Syria. In Egypt. Egypt is not the beginning of that Anti-Spring. It's just the latest spring-breaker turning into winter. Without the fundamentalists abusing their power over the past year, the military would not be on the streets today. A fundamentalist regime is no expression of a functional democracy - it is the end of democracy. Fundamentalism, and democracy and humanism cannot go together. They are mutually exclusive. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-15-13, 04:26 PM	#12
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,605 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The old lie about Islam'S claimed tolerance for the people of the book. Oh my. Like it is a bad idea to ask the pope about the worth of the Catholic dogma and hoping for an objective answer, it also is a bad idea to ask Islamic scholars about whether Islam is good or bad. OF COURSE they say it is good and nice and friendly. Like, of course, the pope sees no wring in Catholicism. Maybe better get your information from scientific researchers or any other, non-biased, more objective source. Alos, check whether history is in conformity with your claims, or not. Some checking of numbers of who kills who more often in the present and in history, and how things are for minorities in Islamic countries in modern times and in past times, usually would make people rethink such claims before they voice them. But something tells me it would not concern you at all. I do not repeat what I have preached so often in the past. I only cut it short and say this: people of the book are not to be wiped out, but are to be held in discrimination, as second class people, with limited rights, and under the ruling of their Musli masters. They are to pay protection money and shou,d be made aware all the time that they suffer these discmrination as Allah'S piunmsihement for them over the refusal to convert to Islam. Islam knows no tolerance and multicultural coexistence, only submission and subjugation, and its own undisputed rule. People not of the book, are to convert, or are to be killed. The Catholic church hates atheists, for they refuse to surrender to the churches control and claim for power and privileges, and it wants to win back terrain it has lost in past centuries to secularism and humanism. For them, even needing to share power with Islam is better, than to accept atheism and secularism. Better believe in Allah , than to not believe in theistic dogma at all. This explains why the church remains silent over the ongoing pogroms against Christian minorities in practically all Muslim world, and even whole genocides committed against Christian ethnicities in some places. Ethnic, religious and cultural minorities are systematically cleansed in all places where Islam settled down since slam reached those places. Since centuries. Since all beginning of Islam. Until today. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-15-13, 05:03 PM	#13
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,711 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Believe me, many things concern me... Your grammar and spelling (or lack thereof) are a concern... Rabidity and the spewing of rote responses is also a concern... The old lie about "People of the Book"? Odd, I wonder if anyone has investgated the veracity of "do unto others", etc.? All religions can and have and will be accused of lies, duplicity, and outright ignorance of their basic tenets. Those of any faith who are knowledgeable of the tenets of their beliefs will follow them. Those who are not will pervert the ideals to satisfy the own base motives. Several years ago, I read a book on comparative religions (something you might want look into). The book listed various fundamental texts from various religions side by side and compared the similarities and differences. There was one portion that started with the New Testament quote "Do unto others...". Oddly enough, there was corresponding admonitions in virtually every other base text or teaching of virtually every other faith. It appear humanity would be better served if the 'believers' followed the texts rather than the 'teachers'... If you wish to keep a 'scorecard' of 'kills', keep in mind Christianity predates Islam by some 600 years and the Jewish faith predates both by couple of millenia BCE. If you tally all the 'kills' before the CE, then add all the kills there after, the Muslim world has some catching up to do; and, recall, over 70 million died in the waging of WW1 & WW2, most of them 'good' Christians killing other 'good' Christians... I do not condone any killing for religious reasons and I am not paticularly keen on killing for any other reasons, althogh I do believe there are times when there is no choice. Religion is a choice, at its base, and to use it to justify 'ungodly' acts is itself ungodly... __________________ __________________________________________________ __

08-15-13, 05:09 PM	#14
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Well, the body count has passed 600 now. And the Brotherhood is calling for a million people to join a march on Friday. How high will the body count go now?

08-15-13, 05:55 PM	#15
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,100 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	Normally I would not support a government taking such hardline action, but Morsi was deposed by the military at the will of the people.Now his die hard, brainwashed supporters are out in force.Sadly, they need to be kept down, hope it works out, don't need the islamists in control over there.Sadly, the US President is on the wrong side of course, supporting the brotherhood. This is basically what it would be like in the US if obama was deposed, impeached etc., The left would get ignorant masses to cause havoc as the muslim brotherhood is doing.