The Limits of Empathy!

[Gerald]

We are surrounded by people trying to make the world a better place. Peace activists bring enemies together so they can get to know one another and feel each other’s pain. School leaders try to attract a diverse set of students so each can understand what it’s like to walk in the others’ shoes. Religious and community groups try to cultivate empathy.

As Steven Pinker writes in his mind-altering new book, “The Better Angels of Our Nature,” we are living in the middle of an “empathy craze.” There are shelfloads of books about it: “The Age of Empathy,” “The Empathy Gap,” “The Empathic Civilization,” “Teaching Empathy.” There’s even a brain theory that we have mirror neurons in our heads that enable us to feel what’s in other people’s heads and that these neurons lead to sympathetic care and moral action.

There’s a lot of truth to all this. We do have mirror neurons in our heads. People who are empathetic are more sensitive to the perspectives and sufferings of others. They are more likely to make compassionate moral judgments.

The problem comes when we try to turn feeling into action. Empathy makes you more aware of other people’s suffering, but it’s not clear it actually motivates you to take moral action or prevents you from taking immoral action.

In the early days of the Holocaust, Nazi prison guards sometimes wept as they mowed down Jewish women and children, but they still did it. Subjects in the famous Milgram experiments felt anguish as they appeared to administer electric shocks to other research subjects, but they pressed on because some guy in a lab coat told them to.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/op...me&ref=general


Note: September 29, 2011

[Castout]

There's only 2 ideologies in this world ever, good or evil. All others are just superficial.

Each person needs to choose which to follow.

Now I'll tell you something that most people haven't realized yet many others have. We are all connected, all of us. Often many of us are already reacting to one another intention or feeling before they get expressed into words or without any sensory perception. The thing is to most people this happens subconsciously, so natural that they tend to dismiss it as nothing while it is not nothing. They didn't even realize it sort to speak.

Empathy can even mean to literally feel what other people are feeling! Simply because consciousness doesn't stand alone nor separated from one another. Consciousness is not restricted to the person and at the same time it is not a signal. Thus consciousness can be accessed beyond the restriction of distance. Empathy works the same too that one can feel other people beyond the limit of distance. One only needs to be aware of them. For example live television.

The whole things open up many questions than answers about our fundamental existing beliefs of consciousness and about the fundamental of all life. And the revelation and the consequences realized will be earth shattering and revolutionary no less.

These things have been taken notice by many scientists, mostly from the quantum science. Yet that science is merely trying to explain a phenomenon already known by others who live it. It's looking for answer to an observation albeit not a generally known fact.

As for me I dream of a world where there is no secret. A world that has no place for liars. A world which knows everybody, personally when they just have met or even when they have never met. This will certainly be a nightmare to many many people but if mankind are to survive the challenges ahead the only way is to move forward and create a whole new more advance society. A society based on the realization that everybody else is me. I call it EVOLUTION. And I believe it is inevitable. Wars may be fought to suppress it but ultimately mankind have to evolve. The path of regression is not only inferior but it will lead to total destruction of mankind. Chaos and even functional chaos cannot be expected to result in anything than impending destruction of mankind and the planet. Regression has no future. It will only buy time before evolution takes place or before destruction comes.

The limits of empathy are decisions and actions, all of which comes from desire and that comes from the human heart. If they all are coherent the limits will be a heaven in the world. The regressed cannot understand the value of good. Time and death will swallow them up in numbers. Death is mankind greatest ally. A brilliant solution to mankind fallibility.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by Castout

There's only 2 ideologies in this world ever, good or evil. All others are just superficial.

Each person needs to choose which to follow.

Now I'll tell you something that most people haven't realized yet many others have. We are all connected, all of us. Often many of us are already reacting to one another intention or feeling before they get expressed into words or without any sensory perception. The thing is to most people this happens subconsciously, so natural that they tend to dismiss it as nothing while it is not nothing. They didn't even realize it sort to speak.

Empathy can even mean to literally feel what other people are feeling! Simply because consciousness doesn't stand alone nor separated from one another. Consciousness is not restricted to the person and at the same time it is not a signal. Thus consciousness can be accessed beyond the restriction of distance. Empathy works the same too that one can feel other people beyond the limit of distance. One only needs to be aware of them. For example live television.

The whole things open up many questions than answers about our fundamental existing beliefs of consciousness and about the fundamental of all life. And the revelation and the consequences realized will be earth shattering and revolutionary no less.

These things have been taken notice by many scientists, mostly from the quantum science. Yet that science is merely trying to explain a phenomenon already known by others who live it. It's looking for answer to an observation albeit not a generally known fact.

As for me I dream of a world where there is no secret. A world that has no place for liars. A world which knows everybody, personally when they just have met or even when they have never met. This will certainly be a nightmare to many many people but if mankind are to survive the challenges ahead the only way is to move forward and create a whole new more advance society. A society based on the realization that everybody else is me. I call it EVOLUTION. And I believe it is inevitable. Wars may be fought to suppress it but ultimately mankind have to evolve. The path of regression is not only inferior but it will lead to total destruction of mankind. Chaos and even functional chaos cannot be expected to result in anything than impending destruction of mankind and the planet. Regression has no future. It will only buy time before evolution takes place or before destruction comes.

The limits of empathy are decisions and actions, all of which comes from desire and that comes from the human heart. If they all are coherent the limits will be a heaven in the world. The regressed cannot understand the value of good. Time and death will swallow them up in numbers. Death is mankind greatest ally. A brilliant solution to mankind fallibility.

mankind is, and always will be falliable and broken.

we simply cant evolve in such ways as to develop a more neurological connection with one another.

you want to see the good in people, and the ideal behaviors of people, but as terrible as it is, people are never going to resolve these problems.

There will always be killing. there will always be violence, rebellion, greed, lies, adultery, ect. peace activists are wasting their breath, even though their cause is just, because the only thing that could make us put down our arms is something that will threaten us all. something like an asteroid. And if we survive it? A termporary peace would ensue as long as possible, but eventually there will be more violence.

And lies and greed by those few ruling the many, not to mention the lies and adultery that ensue in the average person's life.

sucks to come to such a realization. it just sucks.

But, this is what we live with. we must deal with it. We must make the best out of the situation, and strive to find the few people who your can pour you love, trust, and kindness into.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

mankind is, and always will be falliable and broken.

we simply cant evolve in such ways as to develop a more neurological connection with one another.

you want to see the good in people, and the ideal behaviors of people, but as terrible as it is, people are never going to resolve these problems.

There will always be killing. there will always be violence, rebellion, greed, lies, adultery, ect. peace activists are wasting their breath, even though their cause is just, because the only thing that could make us put down our arms is something that will threaten us all. something like an asteroid. And if we survive it? A termporary peace would ensue as long as possible, but eventually there will be more violence.

And lies and greed by those few ruling the many, not to mention the lies and adultery that ensue in the average person's life.

sucks to come to such a realization. it just sucks.

But, this is what we live with. we must deal with it. We must make the best out of the situation, and strive to find the few people who your can pour you love, trust, and kindness into.

Well I didn't mean neurological connection at all. I mean non physical non biological connection. Aha, something new to you.

True that men are fallible, foolishly selfish and whose foolishness knows no bounds.

I believe mankind has the capacity to be good. It's just that mankind has seldom been put under the circumstances to choose. A long drawn out crisis or emergency situation would force people to choose and live to see their consequences. All I'm saying enlightenment often comes after a period of darkness and evil. Without the persecution of evil people will be grey, undecided and in doubts. Once people realize the true nature between good and evil they will realize they have to make a stand.
It's like people who are aware of evil spirits are more likely to be drawn to seek God. Without knowledge of the unseen and or evil people will assume there's no God.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Castout

Once people realize the true nature between good and evil they will realize they have to make a stand.
It's like people who are aware of evil spirits are more likely to be drawn to seek God. Without knowledge of the unseen and or evil people will assume there's no God.

Which God? From previous entries I will assume you are referring to the Abrahamic God in the Christian flavor. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuming further that this God

- created ALL things
- knows all things in advance

why did he create Satan?

[Castout]

Originally Posted by heartc

Which God? From previous entries I will assume you are referring to the Abrahamic God in the Christian flavor. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuming further that this God

- created ALL things
- knows all things in advance

why did he create Satan?

One true God, the God of all, the creator of all and every realm. The living Lord God who I have seen (albeit its glory) and who answered my prayers and showed me the true nature of death and more.

The thing is for every creature they are endowed with free will. I have never seen satan(unless evil spirit counts as satan or devil which is not) but it is said it was an Angel before his fall from grace.

You see satan decided to be satan on his own will. The same with people who choose evil than good. The created sufferings caused are not God's fault. They are the direct result of man's actions and decisions. If God can be faulted then He is not holy and if He is not holy all things will not submit to His will, but all things submit as I have witnessed.

I believe God doesn't know things in advance. God knows everything before everything even began in the beginning. The end is known even before it started. But that's my expression of faith alone. In practice it is seen as if God knew things in advance indeed. That is an expression of my experience.

why did he create Satan?

Satan actually lived in Heaven as head of all music, because he fell into the trap of pride before God, he could no longer stand in Gods Presence and had to leave. (Unofficial version)

Hmm another atheist who hates anything God

No man can be an Atheist merely by wishing it so: Napoleon

[MH]

He played the devil note....

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Castout

There's only 2 ideologies in this world ever, good or evil.

As soon as you come up with a universal unbiased definition of these terms, I hope you will share it with the rest of the world.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Castout

One true God, the God of all, the creator of all and every realm. The living Lord God who I have seen (albeit its glory) and who answered my prayers and showed me the true nature of death and more.

So, is it the Abrahamic God described in the Bible? Did you see him literally, and if not, what do you mean by "I have seen him"?
How do you know he answered your prayers? Why, when he answered your prayer, didn't he answer the prayer of a Christian child in some part of Africa who starved to death? Does he only answer prayers where the solution of the problem can come about by natural means, or does he employ super-natural means to answer prayer?
If the former, how do you know he did it, and can you explain why he is limiting himself in such a way nowadays, assuming that the many supernatural wonders told in the Bible were factual.
If the later, can you please document the case and answer the question why he doesn't regrow the legs of amputees and why there is not something like mana falling from the sky on the Christian communities in Africa.

The thing is for every creature they are endowed with free will. I have never seen satan(unless evil spirit counts as satan or devil which is not) but it is said it was an Angel before his fall from grace.

You see satan decided to be satan on his own will. The same with people who choose evil than good. The created sufferings caused are not God's fault. They are the direct result of man's actions and decisions. If God can be faulted then He is not holy and if He is not holy all things will not submit to His will, but all things submit as I have witnessed.

Define good and evil. Is a "good" deed good because God likes it, or does God like good deeds because they are good?

According to the Bible, God ordered the Israelites multiple times to ransack, pillage and loot neighbouring cities and to leave no living thing therein alive (genocide). On other occasions, he ordered them to kill everybody except for the virgin girls, which instead should be taken by the men. On yet other occasions, he hardened the heart of someone so that this person was unable to do good and / or unable to see. A prominent example for this is of course the Pharao in the Book of Exodus. According to God's own words, he hardened the heart of the Pharao, preventing him from letting the Israelites go, so that he could conduct a demonstration of his glory by unleashing a number of plagues on the Egyptians, culminating in the wholesale slaughter of every single firstborn in all of Egypt, human and animal, by the angel of God, and only then lead the Israelites out of Egypt.
God also demanded the death penalty for gays and for rebellious teenagers, among others.

Are these good and just actions? You said "The created sufferings caused are not God's fault. They are the direct result of man's actions and decisions". While the second sentence is somewhat plausible - although it leaves out the huge agent of random chance and natural processes - explain to me how the first sentence is intelligible when the last thing a child sees is its parents being brutally murdered in front of it before being killed itself by a warrior who was commanded to do so by God. If that created suffering was not God's fault, was it the child's fault? Or rather, it wasn't a fault at all, but the command of God. As was flying two planes into the WTC, or so they say.

I believe God doesn't know things in advance. God knows everything before everything even began in the beginning. The end is known even before it started. But that's my expression of faith alone. In practice it is seen as if God knew things in advance indeed. That is an expression of my experience.

Sorry, but this is a gross contradiction. Either "God doesn't know things in advance" (which btw. is contradictory to the Bible), or "God knows everything before everything even began in the beginning."

So my question still stands. Why create Satan in the first place?
Why create the Angel you know will fail you? (When you create him and you know it, where exactly does free will of the subject chim in here? On a sidenote: Did Judas have free will? Someone had to be Judas in God's plan)? Why put the tree, and why put it in the >middle< of the garden, create sentient beings that are investigative, create an angel that will fall from you, seducing the beings into sinning, only to have your whole nicely done creation sabotaged? There's only three possible answers:

a) God is incompetent. Which shouldn't really seem too surprising considering that at one point he also destroyed all humans because they got corrupted, except for a single family, only to have his "new" mankind be corrupted again by this sneaky Satan fellow, the former angel that he himself created and who fooled him. Then on his third try, he sacrificed his son (to himself?), only he didn't really because the son was resurrected three days later - and he (both) knew it beforehand - and now in 2011, we are still here. And there is still suffering. And when you happen to be born in the wrong part of the world, with the wrong religion or flavor of religion, whose existence proves that God was somehow unable to at least get the message out in a way there could be no doubt about his word, chances are - at least according to many followers of all three Abrahamic religions, which are mutually exclusive - you're out of luck, because you're going straight to hell. And forever. Eternal suffering. But "He" loves you, and is the most high, the most merciful. Wow.
Well, not all is bad, since according to some flavors, you will only be killed by God in a fire.

b) God intended for it, which means he intended for evil. Which shouldn't really seem too surprising either considering he repeatedly ordered his followers to commit genocide in the past.

c) God is a fairytale. Maybe first imagined by primitve men when the first semi-abstract thinker looked up into the clouds and recognized what seemed like a face there, looking down on him. Down from the same place all this scary lightning and thunder comes from every other night. This guy must be angry. Last time someone yelled at me, he did it because he wanted my food. When I gave it to him, he strolled of. Let's do the same thing with this guy up there. And since he lives up there and doesn't come down to eat it, let's burn it and watch how he consumes the smoke up into his realm. And religion was born. Also: God ordered me to kill everbody, loot the village and rape the virgins. Right.

Originally Posted by MH

He played the devil note....

Played the blues all day long

[MH]

Originally Posted by sidslotm

Played the blues all day long

c) God is a fairytale. Maybe first imagined by primitve men when the first semi-abstract thinker looked up into the clouds and recognized what seemed like a face there, looking down on him.

Everyone finds out for themselves on the last day, that's when you judge yourself for what your are in the presence of God, no one escapes.

[MH]

You are going into this God thing again...
Believe whatever you want.
I see religious people living good happy life...they believe in god but it does not stop them from studying or contributing in positive way.
So in their view god created earth/universe...well...ok etc....
In many cases they are more moral and emphatic than secular people...
Certainly much less centered.
If you want jump to extremism to prove your points then have fun but its totally pointless.

I hate this atheist inquisition that amount to radical atheist fanaticism...

RELIGION---run to the hills...

[Gerald]

People of faith have different opinions, which is natural, and only they themselves can account for what they think is best in a given situation.