Illegal aliens started some of the AZ fires

[Platapus]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/19/ari...tml?hpt=po_bn1

McCain blames some Arizona wildfires on illegal immigrants

U.S. Sen. John McCain is blaming illegal immigrants for starting some of the wildfires that have scorched hundreds of thousands of acres in Arizona.

"There is substantial evidence that some of these fires have been caused by people who have crossed our border illegally," McCain, R-Arizona, said Saturday at a press conference. "The answer to that part of the problem is to get a secure border."


The Arizona senator, however, did not say what the evidence is, prompting a swift rebuke from Latino civil rights advocates.


"It's easier to fan the flames of intolerance, especially in Arizona," said Randy Parraz, a civil rights advocate who ran unsuccessfully against McCain as a Democratic candidate in 2010.


Parraz called McCain's remarks "careless and reckless" but not entirely surprising given the political climate in Arizona. The Latino advocate is co-founder of Citizens for a Better Arizona, a group trying the recall the legislator who authored the state's controversial anti-illegal immigration law.



Parraz said McCain "should know better" than to make such an accusation without presenting any facts.


McCain said that illegal immigrants set such fires either to send signals, keep warm or distract law enforcement agents. But he did not specify which fires allegedly had been started by illegal immigrants, nor did he identify his sources or provide details of the "substantial" evidence he cited.

Firefighters are currently battling five wildfires that have burned a combined 732,427 acres in Arizona, according to InciWeb, an online interagency database that tracks fires, floods and other disasters. The fires are under investigation and suspects have not been named. However, local media outlets have reported anecdotal cases of fires breaking out in areas where illegal immigrants have been known to cross the border.


Parraz said it is particularly distressing that immigrants are being blamed for destructive fires at a time when many are also being targeted given the state's unemployment, foreclosure and other economic issues.
"People are looking for someone to blame," he said, claiming it is too easy and convenient to target what he called one of Arizona's "most vulnerable populations."


Angelo Falcon, the president of the National Institute for Latino Policy, criticized McCain for what he called "increasingly blatant" political opportunism.


"The degree of irresponsible political pandering by Sen. McCain has no limits," Falcon said in an email to CNN. "With the lack of evidence, he might as well also blame aliens from outer space for the fires."

There you go. Straight from the horse's........mouth?

[August]

The headline should read:

"Arizona senator blames illegal aliens for fire - racist organizations protest"

[yubba]

I'm surprised that's not all what's going on down there, with the so call failed ATF operation called Fast and Furious.

[Oberon]

Damn those aliens:

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Damn those aliens:

I didn't know Horsell Common was in Arizona.

"Arizona senator blames illegal aliens for fire - racist organizations protest"

Translates as ....arizona politician in an election cycle jumps on espousing silly rumours that have started since day one of the fires with magical mystyerious evidence that is impossible to verify-its them that always object and them is racist because it is them.
August, bringing balance to US politics because its always them
I suppose the "liberal media" had it off pat with....."The degree of irresponsible political pandering by Sen. McCain has no limits," Falcon said in an email to CNN. "With the lack of evidence, he might as well also blame aliens from outer space for the fires."
In case you are not up to date on the story August look back and see these silly accusations right from the very start of the bushfires....Its mexicans I tell ya or maybe guatamalans but whichever bloody foriegner they be they don't do be real americans

[tater]

It would be surprising if any border area fires were not caused by illegals. I realize tribesman has a wealth of experience in the backcountry of NM and AZ, compared to someone whose principal recreational activity is hiking here in NM, so clearly I could be wrong. Illegals camp out en-route, and they have no respect for anything, so I doubt they waste water they must carry to put out their campfires. They dump trash as they walk, for example (silly me, I pack everything out that I carry in). There are cig buts all over, so clearly they also smoke. In addition, vehicles can easily start fires when it is this dry. Illegals drive across out here, you know. A hot exhaust system touched bone-dry grass on the high center of a rutted road... fire. The Track fire here in NM (Raton) was started by an ATV, for example (note in this case not illegals, but rednecks---fat ones, likely, as I've never seen anyone on an ATV that looks like they could walk any distance---note that here in NM, a "red neck" very likely speaks spanish, I'm not prejudiced, I call rednecks rednecks regardless of surname).

Farther north, here in Albuquerque, the fires we have in the bosque are usually caused by bums (aka (to the politically correct) "homeless"). Some are caused by kids, too. Most the last few years are homeless camped out.

Note that border areas doesn't mean border states. It means fires that start in proximity to the US/Mexico border. The Monument fire in AZ is on the border, for example, in an area known for illegals moving, and drug trafficking (the 2 go together). Horseshoe2 might be as well. There have been past fires conclusively determined to have been caused by abandoned fires along routes used by illegals. http://www.inciweb.org/incident/2324/

As I am typing, I can hear slurry bombers flying over my house, headed north to Santa Fe---the Pacheco fire was not caused by illegals.

Illegals are the likely cause of 2 current fires, one of which is quite large. Not the only possible cause, by very likely.

[tater]

BTW, you can see clusters of fires historically along the US-Mexico border in smuggling routes over the years with this viewer:

http://www.geomac.gov/viewer/viewer.shtml

The clusters north of the border are national forest areas (vs other areas with less to burn). The clusters on the border (the NM bootheel as well) are known smuggling areas.

In the last few years, no one goes there except illegals, it's too dangerous because of them. I hiked down in the boothell in the 90s, but wouldn't consider it any more (even if I was carrying). Even in the 90s there were signs of illegals.

[Platapus]

I just wonder why Mr. McCain did not mention that some of the fires may have been started by white anglo judeo-christian families being careless while camping? Or has it been demonstrated that fires are never caused by white Americans (quick, notify Smokey the Bear!)

If he is truly interested in identifying all the potential causes of these fires, why limit it to undocumented aliens?

You don't think this Senator would be making this statement in order to further a political agenda? No, that would be wrong.

I find it distasteful when a politician (all politicians) uses a disaster in which people's lives and livelihoods are being destroyed in order to further a political agenda.

Expecting honour among politicians is like expecting virtue among whores.

[tater]

Fires started by Americans are a problem, and possibly even criminal.

Still, there is nothing you can do about that.

Foires set by people that should not be here in the first place are a different matter. Just like murders, rapes, etc caused by illegals, they are 100% preventable crimes. Seal border, and all those victims are not victimized. All those crimes are "excess" crimes, in other words. COuld people still be victims of crimes? Of course.

A kid was raped in a gym (day care facility in a nice gym here) a while back. The perp was an illegal. That kid would not have been raped if the border was secure. Being against better border enforcement is being FOR that crime (and all others done by illegals).

[Freiwillige]

Yea those fires are in areas that are heavily marked for Americans to stay out of do to the dangers of illegals and drug runners but I am sure it was 1955 American family camping that started it since they didn't get the memo

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Damn those aliens:

That one is perfectly legal

I realize tribesman has a wealth of experience in the backcountry of NM and AZ, compared to someone whose principal recreational activity is hiking here in NM

That is funny tater, I do realise that I really need to be in your location and to be a hiking enthusiast to understand that the border fire you link to didn't even start in the US.
BTW if illegals are such a cause of wildfires why is so much of that link on current fires taken up with fires in north eastern Texas?
I take it the Alaskan wildfires are just some latinos who got really lost?

you can see clusters of fires historically along the US-Mexico border in smuggling routes over the years with this viewer:

Thats a rather dishonest claim, giving half a picture isn't presenting a real case at all.
However working off your link why are there so few? Surely if illegals are a worthwhile factor in this wildfire problem then their smuggling routes would dominate the map instead of being by the relatively fire free areas.
So lets get this straight , you are basing your claim on local knowlege backed up by information you provide which shoots great big holes your claims.

Amazing isn't it, how your local expertise can be trumped by simple experience as in.....arizona politician in an election cycle jumps on espousing silly rumours

@Platapus

I find it distasteful when a politician (all politicians) uses a disaster in which people's lives and livelihoods are being destroyed in order to further a political agenda.

Sadly I just find it normal, distateful yes, but such a run of the mill event it is fully expected.
However what I do find really distasteful is people jumping up to support that politician using the disaster.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

That is funny tater, I do realise that I really need to be in your location and to be a hiking enthusiast to understand that the border fire you link to didn't even start in the US.
BTW if illegals are such a cause of wildfires why is so much of that link on current fires taken up with fires in north eastern Texas?
I take it the Alaskan wildfires are just some latinos who got really lost?

I said the areas in proximity to the actual border. That includes mexico where illegals stage to cross into the US (or drug runners).

I would bet money that the leading cause of wildfires nationally is in fact lightning, and by a wide margin. Lightning would be up there as a cause in AZ right now, except we've not had any moisture at all. Humid days lately have pushed 10% humidity. the other day the official value in ABQ was ZERO. Crazy. No storms, no lightning. Besides, the Monument and Horseshoe2 fires have already been found to have been caused by people (probably because they know there have been no storms at all lately, duh).

Thats a rather dishonest claim, giving half a picture isn't presenting a real case at all.
However working off your link why are there so few? Surely if illegals are a worthwhile factor in this wildfire problem then their smuggling routes would dominate the map instead of being by the relatively fire free areas.
So lets get this straight , you are basing your claim on local knowlege backed up by information you provide which shoots great big holes your claims.

Amazing isn't it, how your local expertise can be trumped by simple experience as in.....arizona politician in an election cycle jumps on espousing silly rumours

It's trumped by nothing.

The most likely cause nationally is lightning, but we're in a very dry spell here in the SW. No measurable rain in over 120 days. So little moisture, we're not even making dry thunderstorms (storms sans rain happen during the dry season, and are feared as they still make lightning, even if the rain evaporates before hitting the ground (which is called "virga" BTW)). What causes fires in AK (or TX) where they get many tens of inches of rain per year, and what causes them in AZ or NM with well under 10 inches per year are two different things.

Since the current bigger fires have already been determined to be man-caused, illegals are the most likely cause since no regular people camp near the border, it's too dangerous right now, and has been for years.

Other states have other causes. You seem to act as if the most likely cuase in one place must be the most likely cause in every other place, or that since I say illegals are a primary cause within a few miles of the border (say 10-20), it must be so in AK. That's ridiculous. You realize that there are counties in AZ and NM that are likely bigger than your country, right?

There are vast geographical differences even between southern and northern AZ, for example. The south is harsh desert (Sonora), the north is high desert and mountains. Texas is the plains, and since they get vastly different weather (cyclonic storms over the plains), lightning is a very likely cause for TX fires (you may have heard of a few bad storms east of the rockies already this season, some made tornados). New Mexico, for example, has great plains on the East (TX like weather with huge storms, tornados, etc), but the West is high desert. The south is very hot and dry, the north is fairly dry, but from Santa Fe north it's the rockies, so there is far more water in the mountains (it rains preferentially at high altitude due to orographic lift).

In the desert, where there are no storms common until monsoon season (hopefully early July, but sometimes not til August), lightning is simply not a likely suspect before the monsoons. (note that we get ~8 inches here in northern NM, but souther AZ might get considerably less, and still most in July-September when they may see daily t-storms. I do mean "see," BTW, we see storms wandering around, but they only rain on a given spot every so often. Course I can see over 100 miles away out my window).

Sadly I just find it normal, distateful yes, but such a run of the mill event it is fully expected.
However what I do find really distasteful is people jumping up to support that politician using the disaster.

I don't like McCain, but he's right in this case. Yes, he's trying to get anti-illegal immigration creds by stating it which is funny, since he doesn't vote very well in that regard.

Anyway, the most likely cause for any fire that is man-caused along the border is illegals, period. Why? Because no one else goes there any more.

It's trumped by nothing.

It most certainly is and has been.

For a quick demonstration.....

Anyway, the most likely cause for any fire that is man-caused along the border is illegals, period. Why? Because no one else goes there any more.

....that is you showing you are talking pure bollox.

But hey for the fun of it, can your local expertise give any verification to the "human cause" of a fire from an area where "no one but illegals go" and "can only be from illegals campfires" was in reality someone working on the land where people live and work and it happened to be started accidently by someone using a bulldozer in very dry scrubland?
Still look on the bright side , at least this time it wasn't "human causes" in the shape of local dumb motorists or criminal firemen looking for a big boost through arson as of course its the illegals that can be human causes and its only illegals that go anywhere