The power of Fox News?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02...y6201911.shtml

How did perceptions among some people get skewed so far from reality?

[SteamWake]

I dont know lets ask some small buisness owners shall we?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

I dont know lets ask some small buisness owners shall we?

You mean the ones he cut taxes for?

Cognitive dissonance. When confronted with facts that run counter to their beliefs, people will ignore them or try to disprove them. I think it's a mental illness.

[NeonSamurai]

Not exactly, Cognitive dissonance is where you have cognitions (thoughts/ideas) that run contrary to each other, which triggers to anxiety. The theory is that people will try to eliminate the anxiety by altering their cognitions to remove the dissonance. (oh and this is normal behavior)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

What I think you are thinking of is confirmation bias (also considered normal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

And another thing that is probably going on is cognitive bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

Now stuff like denial and distortion are more in the area of mental illness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_defense


But mostly I would chalk the results up to good ol' ignorance and apathy. Being informed and staying informed takes effort and action, and many people are just too lazy to bother, so they rely on the popular media (a junk source of information) to feed them their opinions and thoughts.

[SteamWake]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...taxed+to+death

how about the power of the heritage foundation?

Originally Posted by Heritage Foundation

• Taxes. President Obama's 2011 budget calls for $2 trillion in higher taxes over 10 years--after subtracting a relatively insignificant $154 billion in tax cuts. This would be a $17,000 tax increase for every American household during that span. Though no economic theory justifies raising taxes during a, P recessionresident Obama would impose nearly $1 trillion in tax hikes for 3.2 million upper-income families and small businesses. He would eliminate tax breaks for charitable giving and the mortgage interest deduction for millions of Americans. In addition, the energy taxes known as a cap-and-trade system are expected to pull in about $800 billion primarily from American businesses and families over the next decade.

http://www.askheritage.org/Answer.aspx?ID=741

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...taxed+to+death

how about the power of the heritage foundation?



http://www.askheritage.org/Answer.aspx?ID=741

Of course, my response would be: "Uh, is the Heritage Foundation biased?"

And the response to that would probably be: "No more than CBS/The New York Times!!!!"

Then let's say I responded: "Well, let's ask an objective third party, say, a foreigner"

The response to that might be: "Foreigners are all libs!!!!"

And around and around we go..

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

I dont know lets ask some small buisness owners shall we?

And they make up 95% of the populace?

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

And they make up 95% of the populace?

Originally Posted by President Obama

Now, let me repeat: We cut taxes. We cut taxes for 95 percent of working families. We cut taxes for small businesses. We cut taxes for first-time homebuyers. We cut taxes for parents trying to care for their children. We cut taxes for 8 million Americans paying for college.

That is from the article

how about the power of the heritage foundation?

Thats funny.
So in relation to a simple A+B=C question and peoples perception of that answer the response is X+elephant-helicopter+saxophone= sort of Cish.

BTW your link to the earlier topic turned out to not be a very reliable one about tax did it, but a very good one about perceptions of tax, which kinda proves the point you are trying to disprove

[CaptainHaplo]

Lets examine the facts shall we?

Now, let me repeat: We cut taxes," he said. "We cut taxes for 95 percent of working families.

This is political spin on washington doing creative bookkeeping. What really happens is that there is a $500 per worker tax credit, at a cost of about $150 billion. The government will just borrow $150 billion from the private economy to give away in these tax credits, so there will be no net gain to the economy. Its not a tax CUT - because the tax RATE was not changed. It is however a feel good spin job to make people think someone is doing something, when in essence they are not. What this is - is he borrowed money from the American people and "gave" it right back - while saying ok I am giving you this - but you have to pay for it later. Note I don't blame Obama only - as this is an old washington trick that he isnt' the first to play. But its still not a truthful statement.

But it goes further. Roughly 40% of workers ultimately do not pay taxes on their net income. So giving them a "credit" of $500 does not reduce their taxes - but it does increase the SHARE of the tax burden on those who do pay. And we still are not done. The "Earned Income Credit" amounts were increased. Now for those that don't know - this is a program where if you make below a certain amount, you are not only charged no taxes, but given a "rebate" (often a sizable one) from the government. As an example, a single person with one qualifying dependant makes $35,463 and chooses not to pay in a dime to income taxes over the year. When they file taxes, they would owe a total of approximately $1,553 in taxes. But they qualify for the EIC - so instead of paying a DIME in - they instead get a REBATE check (even though they havent paid anything in) of the EIC amount ($3,043) minus the tax liability. In the end - the person above gets a check for $1409.00 from "taxes" - that they never paid. And Obama raised the EIC numbers - which as shown above is not reducing taxes on TAXPAYERS - but rather increasing yet another "welfare" style program under the guise of a "tax cut". It is out and out disgusting to call this a "tax cut" for taxpayers.

We cut taxes for small businesses.

Again with the spin. What Obama did was push a one year, $3000 tax CREDIT to small businesses for each person they hire. However, what he doesn't talk about is that this is a very small expansion of a Congressional move adopted when it was proposed by Dan Quayle in the 80s. It was called the Targeted Jobs Tax Credit (TJTC). Over the years this has been changed into the Work Opportunity Tax Credit (WOTC), which provides $2,400 for each new adult worker hired, $4,800 for hiring a disabled veteran, and $9,600 for hiring welfare recipients, high risk youths, and qualified ex-felons. Every study of the program has indicated that has done nothing to create jobs or lessen the tax burden in any meaningful way on business owners. A 20% increase in something that doesn't work isn't a meaningful tax move in any way, no matter how he tries to twist it. Especially when this covers only a very small portion of the businesses he is claiming he is helping.

We cut taxes for first-time homebuyers.

Again we have the confusion between a tax CUT and a tax CREDIT. A cut is a reduction in tax rates - a credit is a "give back" that is borrowed against the taxpayers (all of us) and ultimately must be paid. The $8000 tax credit for first time home buyers is exactly that - a credit. Its robbing peter to pay paul as the saying goes, and ultimately peter, paul and the rest of us end up paying it - though taxes. So once more, its not a tax cut in any form, just spin attempts to say "see how great we are?" while they quietly insure we will end up paying for it regardless.

We cut taxes for parents trying to care for their children.

No - you INCREASED a tax CREDIT by up to $1100. Nice for those that can use it, but ultimately that has to come from somewhere now doesn't it - and so the people recieving this additional credt are those that are either in the 40% that don't pay taxes anyway (as we have already discussed) - or they are the rest of America that works and pays taxes, that now must also cover this credit.

We cut taxes for 8 million Americans paying for college.

Finally we get to the end of these claims - and big suprise, its not a cut - its a credit. Up to $4000 dollars worth of one in fact. Now I am all for making college more affordable, but don't claim something is a tax cut when its not. For every person claiming this credit - its again money borrowed (as its spent but never collected) - meaning the rest of America is on the hook for it.

So lets really look at it shall we?

"We cut taxes for 95 percent of working families.

Yet according to the NON-PARTISAN Tax Center - nearly half of all tax "units" (filers) will pay NO taxes at all. Source: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publi...cfm?ID=1001289 It is an out an out boldfaced lie because you can't cut taxes below 0.

So when you look at a poll that asks people "Did the president cut taxes?", and then tries to be shocked that people don't know he did - its actually trying to continue the spin that something was done when in reality - it wasn't. If you look at the FACTS - you see that the article takes the position that the President did cut taxes, which is a fallacy. And then the folks at CBS News wonder why their ratings continually drop. Its because people don't care to see propoganda on the news channel known as C .... BS.

[Jimbuna]

Taxes, after all, are dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society. ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Its because people don't care to see propoganda on the news channel known as C .... BS.

And things like that at the very end make us ignore the rest of your message. Do you say the same things about News Corp entities? I doubt it.

[CaptainHaplo]

Torvald - if pointing out the fallacy purported by a "news" agency makes you ignore a credibly sourced, logical and coherent argument, that says more about you than it does about me, don't you think?

For the record, I personally don't take ANY single "news" organization as gospel - but choose to do the research independantly to find the truth. I have found times where Foxnews has been in error. Just as ABC, CNN and CBS are as well. My comment at the end simply is my way of expressing what is known by many who are like me - that CBS of all the so called "news" organizations is the one most likely to ignore facts while trying to put a political group on display - either for a positive or negative purpose. Note how the article you linked holds up the "Tea Party" supporters as even further "misinformed" - thus holding them up as an object of scorn and nutjobbery (yes, I know thats not likely a real word) even though facts show them to be more in tune with the facts than CBS. Every "news" organization plays the same game, some just do it more blatently than others, but the citizenry should be willing and engaged enough to do the research to find the facts and make their own judgements regardless of who they get the initial info from.

Now if you want to discuss the OP and my response - by all means review my position and respond. I will consider the merits of your views and we can debate it. But the comment you made is one that is reminiscent of a "tribesman" tactic - instead of addressing the merits of the arguement, instead divert the discussion into something else.

So - your response to the points I have made showing that the article is positing a flawed position encouraged by the Obama team? Or will you concede that despite the spin of the administration and CBS, that no real tax CUTS have been made, and thus the "perceptions" of the majority of people are not nearly as far off from the reality as the political spinners would like?