Sunk by PT boat

Fluffysheap · 01-15-09, 07:12 AM

... I certainly didn't expect that to happen. I'm new and I figured my first death (... not counting the time where I thought my navigator was steering but he wasn't and I crashed into the Kiel canal) would be at the hands of a convoy with three destroyers, or something, but no, it's a lone PT boat. I'm playing GWX3.

I'm sailing my Type II - no deck gun, of course - and come across a coastal merchant, which I sink. It's a good shot, torpedo from 1KM right in the middle and it sinks right away, a pretty good shot for turning the TDC knobs myself. There's a PT boat about 5 KM away and he comes for me.

Obviously I could easily escape from a PT boat but I figure, well, it's only a PT boat, I will sink him with my flak gun. He doesn't launch a torpedo, I'm not sure if the AI can even do that, even in GWX. I shoot his searchlight out pretty fast and put a couple dozen holes in him, he's firing back with his machine gun and while I take some hits, my crew is on top of the repairs. Once in a while I check crew status to see if my watch/gun crew is hurt, they are OK so I figure I'm safe. He's getting sort of low in the water and is starting to slow down so I think I'm winning.

Suddenly I'm destroyed. Oops!

I had no idea. I realize the Type II is not really supposed to get involved in a surface gunnery duel but I figured I would blow him up pretty fast and I could always dive if things started to get hairy. I also didn't expect a PT boat would hold up to more than three or four flak gun hits.

Anyway... is there any way to tell if your sub is likely to be destroyed soon? GWX took the hull integrity number away. I honestly have no idea how you can even sink a submarine with a machine gun.... especially without hitting any of the crew on deck!

01-15-09, 07:45 AM

Realisticaly you're right it would be impossible to destroy a submarine by a machinegun

You as well could sink small or coastal freigter by only a machine gun if you aim for waterline accurately. The principle in the game is that torpedos, deck/flack guns have their own damage scale. You could basically sink a large merchant with the flack gun if you would have enough ammo for that

Personally me as well would like to see flack guns would have no effect on ships begining from small merchants and bigger ships.

I know it sounds strange and in RL it would make no sense. But it is how it is

Balle Klorin · 01-15-09, 09:38 AM

There's even more to this. A small vessel made out of plywood shouldn't be able to take a direct hit from a 105mm gun, but I had to hit the sucker 5 times before he went down :rotfl:

And the speed,...40 knots in heavy weather is just stupid.

Just another weird thing in this game I guess. Same thing goes for the armed trawlers, just some old hulks with no armor at all. But they really take a beating before they die.

sea snake · 01-15-09, 12:00 PM

dont feel bad i got sank by a pt also,pretty embarising. i was stuck. i had to continually blow ballast so he had me .the worst part about it was it was a neutral country but i sank their coastal vessel.

Task Force · 01-15-09, 12:36 PM

Yea, MG fire from a PT boat shouldnt sink a sub. (but it should kill your crew on deck./ cause damage to your deck and caseing.)

Jimbuna · 01-15-09, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffysheap

Anyway... is there any way to tell if your sub is likely to be destroyed soon? GWX took the hull integrity number away. I honestly have no idea how you can even sink a submarine with a machine gun.... especially without hitting any of the crew on deck!

You can put the hull integrity facility back in using SH3 Commander.

GoldenRivet · 01-15-09, 01:21 PM

my assumption would be that PT boats were made so powerful in GWX because they lack the ability in SH3 to fire torpedoes.

In real life the PT Boat would have rushed in on you and launched a salvo of 2 torpedoes... which by all accounts probably would have obliterated your u-boat.

Also... was he firing at you with every gun on deck? if so he was likely hitting you with the 20mm Oerlikon Cannon. if later in the war it may have been a 2 barrel 40mm cannon.

look here @ 20mm

look here @ 40mm (between 1:08 and 4:00)

given the above is a vehicle mounted example, however these ARE 20 and 40 mm projectiles, and both were mounted on PT boats in various examples.

I can promise you that either of these rounds would poke a considerable hole in a submarine.

Kapt Z · 01-15-09, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

my assumption would be that PT boats were made so powerful in GWX because they lack the ability in SH3 to fire torpedoes.

In real life the PT Boat would have rushed in on you and launched a salvo of 2 torpedoes... which by all accounts probably would have obliterated your u-boat.

Also... was he firing at you with every gun on deck? if so he was likely hitting you with the 20mm Oerlikon Cannon. if later in the war it may have been a 2 barrel 40mm cannon.

look here @ 20mm

look here @ 40mm (between 1:08 and 4:00)

given the above is a vehicle mounted example, however these ARE 20 and 40 mm projectiles, and both were mounted on PT boats in various examples.

I can promise you that either of these rounds would poke a considerable hole in a submarine.

The videos really bring it home. I could easily see how that kind of fire would cut up a uboat pretty quick. At least wipe out any crew on deck or in the bridge. Ouch.

Reminds me of a question my wife always asks after we attend a re-enactment of Civil War or Revolution battle. "How is it possible that veterans of combat have any hearing left at all???":hmm:

Task Force · 01-15-09, 01:58 PM

Heres a sea based 40mm gun.

or two

GoldenRivet · 01-15-09, 02:10 PM

considering a 40 mm round weights around 5 lbs ... that second video task force has shared with us equates to 100 lbs of lead on the target if not more.

You have to think of how large a 40 mm round actually is. In the above videos... its like having 20 armor piercing golf balls fired at you in about 12 seconds.

Thats going to pierce close to 5" - 6" armor plate, what did U-boats have for armor.

There would definitely be some leaks in the sub.

StarLion45 · 01-15-09, 02:11 PM

:p Hey Task Force :p

Be careful with those PT boats , or they....

StarLion45 · 01-15-09, 02:15 PM

You must be careful out there man

Redshirt · 01-15-09, 04:54 PM

A single 20mm cannon from a PT boat probably not that dangerious... however...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter)

That thing was flying with 4 20mm cannon in late 1940-42. hehe a shame it hasnt made it into GWX however with only 116 I can see why. It was used in a few coastal patrols and the squadron operating them was credited several E-Boats.

Nasty wee beast - 4 20mm cannon could do a fair number on a Sub. Its slightly faster than a Hurrican, and considerably better armed compared to all other British Figthers of 1940-41

anywho... somewhat off topic...

Jimbuna · 01-15-09, 05:10 PM

Also worthy of consideration is the fact that once the U-boats pressure hull is holed she is no longer able to submerge....in effect no longer a submarine and easy prey to aircraft and or naval units.

A Type VII pressure hull thickness was between 18.5mm and 21mm depending on version.

Erich dem Roten · 01-15-09, 06:23 PM

In my opinion its really a matter of game mechanics. Could a PT boat sink a sub? Probably, especially now that we've seen the guns they can boast. And, as jimbuna mentioned, once a sub is hulled, that's pretty much the end of it being a sub and the start of it being a leaky tub.

On the other hand, could concentrated 20mm AA fire break up a PT boat? I'd say yes; they were plywood speedsters with guns. If nothing else you'd be killing/wounding/keeping the crew behind what plating they had and hopefully spoiling any torpedo runs. Even under perfect conditions I believe PT boats were woefully inaccurate.

In my opinion its really a matter of game mechanics. The core of the matter is would a PT boat and a U-Boat be fighting it out with guns on the surface? No, and the amount of damage their machine guns do is there to remind you of that.

Doesn't mean it's not fun to try though :p Maybe next time aim for the gunners right away.

01-15-09, 07:12 AM	#1
Fluffysheap Bosun Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 63 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Sunk by PT boat ... I certainly didn't expect that to happen. I'm new and I figured my first death (... not counting the time where I thought my navigator was steering but he wasn't and I crashed into the Kiel canal) would be at the hands of a convoy with three destroyers, or something, but no, it's a lone PT boat. I'm playing GWX3. I'm sailing my Type II - no deck gun, of course - and come across a coastal merchant, which I sink. It's a good shot, torpedo from 1KM right in the middle and it sinks right away, a pretty good shot for turning the TDC knobs myself. There's a PT boat about 5 KM away and he comes for me. Obviously I could easily escape from a PT boat but I figure, well, it's only a PT boat, I will sink him with my flak gun. He doesn't launch a torpedo, I'm not sure if the AI can even do that, even in GWX. I shoot his searchlight out pretty fast and put a couple dozen holes in him, he's firing back with his machine gun and while I take some hits, my crew is on top of the repairs. Once in a while I check crew status to see if my watch/gun crew is hurt, they are OK so I figure I'm safe. He's getting sort of low in the water and is starting to slow down so I think I'm winning. Suddenly I'm destroyed. Oops! I had no idea. I realize the Type II is not really supposed to get involved in a surface gunnery duel but I figured I would blow him up pretty fast and I could always dive if things started to get hairy. I also didn't expect a PT boat would hold up to more than three or four flak gun hits. Anyway... is there any way to tell if your sub is likely to be destroyed soon? GWX took the hull integrity number away. I honestly have no idea how you can even sink a submarine with a machine gun.... especially without hitting any of the crew on deck!

01-15-09, 12:36 PM	#5
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Yea, MG fire from a PT boat shouldnt sink a sub. (but it should kill your crew on deck./ cause damage to your deck and caseing.) __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"

01-15-09, 01:21 PM	#7
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	my assumption would be that PT boats were made so powerful in GWX because they lack the ability in SH3 to fire torpedoes. In real life the PT Boat would have rushed in on you and launched a salvo of 2 torpedoes... which by all accounts probably would have obliterated your u-boat. Also... was he firing at you with every gun on deck? if so he was likely hitting you with the 20mm Oerlikon Cannon. if later in the war it may have been a 2 barrel 40mm cannon. look here @ 20mm look here @ 40mm (between 1:08 and 4:00) given the above is a vehicle mounted example, however these ARE 20 and 40 mm projectiles, and both were mounted on PT boats in various examples. I can promise you that either of these rounds would poke a considerable hole in a submarine. __________________

01-15-09, 01:58 PM	#9
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Heres a sea based 40mm gun. or two __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"

01-15-09, 02:10 PM	#10
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	considering a 40 mm round weights around 5 lbs ... that second video task force has shared with us equates to 100 lbs of lead on the target if not more. You have to think of how large a 40 mm round actually is. In the above videos... its like having 20 armor piercing golf balls fired at you in about 12 seconds. Thats going to pierce close to 5" - 6" armor plate, what did U-boats have for armor. There would definitely be some leaks in the sub. __________________

01-15-09, 07:45 AM	#2
Contact Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Realisticaly you're right it would be impossible to destroy a submarine by a machinegun You as well could sink small or coastal freigter by only a machine gun if you aim for waterline accurately. The principle in the game is that torpedos, deck/flack guns have their own damage scale. You could basically sink a large merchant with the flack gun if you would have enough ammo for that Personally me as well would like to see flack guns would have no effect on ships begining from small merchants and bigger ships. I know it sounds strange and in RL it would make no sense. But it is how it is

01-15-09, 09:38 AM	#3
Balle Klorin Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: 20km from the Tirpitz hideout Posts: 12 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	There's even more to this. A small vessel made out of plywood shouldn't be able to take a direct hit from a 105mm gun, but I had to hit the sucker 5 times before he went down :rotfl: And the speed,...40 knots in heavy weather is just stupid. Just another weird thing in this game I guess. Same thing goes for the armed trawlers, just some old hulks with no armor at all. But they really take a beating before they die.

01-15-09, 12:00 PM	#4
sea snake Watch Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: u.s.a Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	dont feel bad i got sank by a pt also,pretty embarising. i was stuck. i had to continually blow ballast so he had me .the worst part about it was it was a neutral country but i sank their coastal vessel.

01-15-09, 02:11 PM	#11
StarLion45 Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Stavanger,Norway Posts: 895 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	PT Boats :p Hey Task Force :p Be careful with those PT boats , or they....

01-15-09, 02:15 PM	#12
StarLion45 Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Stavanger,Norway Posts: 895 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	Fluffysheap You must be careful out there man

01-15-09, 04:54 PM	#13
Redshirt Bosun Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 64 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	A single 20mm cannon from a PT boat probably not that dangerious... however... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter) That thing was flying with 4 20mm cannon in late 1940-42. hehe a shame it hasnt made it into GWX however with only 116 I can see why. It was used in a few coastal patrols and the squadron operating them was credited several E-Boats. Nasty wee beast - 4 20mm cannon could do a fair number on a Sub. Its slightly faster than a Hurrican, and considerably better armed compared to all other British Figthers of 1940-41 anywho... somewhat off topic... __________________ Reds under the bed!

01-15-09, 05:10 PM	#14
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,481 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Also worthy of consideration is the fact that once the U-boats pressure hull is holed she is no longer able to submerge....in effect no longer a submarine and easy prey to aircraft and or naval units. A Type VII pressure hull thickness was between 18.5mm and 21mm depending on version. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-15-09, 06:23 PM	#15
Erich dem Roten Electrician's Mate Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 134 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	In my opinion its really a matter of game mechanics. Could a PT boat sink a sub? Probably, especially now that we've seen the guns they can boast. And, as jimbuna mentioned, once a sub is hulled, that's pretty much the end of it being a sub and the start of it being a leaky tub. On the other hand, could concentrated 20mm AA fire break up a PT boat? I'd say yes; they were plywood speedsters with guns. If nothing else you'd be killing/wounding/keeping the crew behind what plating they had and hopefully spoiling any torpedo runs. Even under perfect conditions I believe PT boats were woefully inaccurate. In my opinion its really a matter of game mechanics. The core of the matter is would a PT boat and a U-Boat be fighting it out with guns on the surface? No, and the amount of damage their machine guns do is there to remind you of that. Doesn't mean it's not fun to try though :p Maybe next time aim for the gunners right away. __________________