On the F-35 - and its many problems

[Skybird]

Of raised interest for Germany. It ordered the A-version.



https://www.defensenews.com/smr/hidden-troubles-f35/

[Rockstar]

I’m thinking this is all part of the process. Those many problems are being addressed and hopefully will be corrected prior to moving into full scale production.

Who knows maybe the F-35A will be good enough the Luftwaffe will start up another aerobatic team.

[Catfish]

Only 35 fighters? How long are they supposed to hold out in a war? Appx. one third can be at the front at a time, rest being repaired or maintained.

Regarding aerobatics or air-to-air combat the F-35 is said to be inferior to the 30-year-old russian SU-29, and the F-35's stealth capabilities are not so good either against modern radar frequencies. Then one turbine, not good. The carrier version is said to develop microcracks in the fuselage, but Germany will not need those anyway.
"Almost 800 problems with the F-35 from which 7 are still considered vital."

It is the only solution to be available in a short time, so ok (for now). I would sure have preferred a european-built fighter like a Tornado's successor, for spares and maintenance dependencies.
But then I read spare parts for the Panavia bird can only be obtained via ebay anymore

[Commander Wallace]

^ I would pass on the F-35. There are better and cheaper alternatives like the F-15's and F-16's. If they had thrust vectoring, they might be even better in low speed flight. At high speed, I think it might pull more G's than the human body can withstand-for long. I think they would come in at a drastically lower cost as well.

With regards to the Tornado, I believe they are more of a strike aircraft and less of an air superiority type fighter aircraft like the F-15's and F-16's. If vertical lift is / was an issue, I believe the Brit Harrier, re-engineered would have been a viable alternative as well. The English showed in the Falklands war how good the Harrier can be-in capable hands. With new turbofan engines capable of mach speeds, and a redesigned nose to accommodate modern radars or up to date Blue Vixen radars suites, I believe the Harrier would be even more formidable than it is now.

The Blue Vixen's were compatible with Sidewinders, Aim-120 Amraam's and Brit Sea Eagle's. I would be willing to bet they could be made to work with Israeli Python and other missiles as well.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Vixen


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(missile)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

^ I would pass on the F-35. There are better and cheaper alternatives like the F-15's and F-16's. If they had thrust vectoring, they might be even better in low speed flight. At high speed, I think it might pull more G's than the human body can withstand-for long. I think they would come in at a drastically lower cost as well.

With regards to the Tornado, I believe they are more of a strike aircraft and less of an air superiority type fighter aircraft like the F-15's and F-16's. If vertical lift is / was an issue, I believe the Brit Harrier, re-engineered would have been a viable alternative as well. The English showed in the Falklands war how good the Harrier can be-in capable hands. With new turbofan engines capable of mach speeds, and a redesigned nose to accommodate modern radars or up to date Blue Vixen radars suites, I believe the Harrier would be even more formidable than it is now.

The Blue Vixen's were compatible with Sidewinders, Aim-120 Amraam's and Brit Sea Eagle's. I would be willing to bet they could be made to work with Israeli Python and other missiles as well.

Again, this deal now is predominantly about secuing an ongoing of the German nuclear participation, that the Germans can operate bombers that can carry American nuclear bombs. Without that, the Tornados would already have been phased out since a few years, most likely. This is not meant to replace the full conventional fighter fleet. The germans have showed to be unable to get their homework for a Tornado-replacement done since many, many years. Now there is panic.

My biggest argument against the F-35 is the logistics behind maintaining it, and the dependency on US-provided certified US technicians. Key components in the planes delivered to foreign customers are not allowed to be maintained by national workers, but only by American personennel. Also, spare parts again make us depending on the US. Its also an intel breach concern, since this arrangement gives the US a deep insight into operations and plans of these foreign customers. Availabiltiy and delivery of spare parts also will be a concern if the US gets engaged in a longer conflict in asia and has own losses it must compensate then. Now wonder where Lockheed'S loyalties and liabilties then will prioritize!

But we cannot come up with a new plane by ourselves in just 2 years. The new European super-wonder-miracle fighter is expected not before 2040 or later - and then it will suffer from plenty of teethign problems, and will need more years to mature, and then will be bought in ridiculously low numbers becasue it will be so hilariously expensive.

We slept too long. Now there are only compromises left, none of them comes without serious disadvantages.

Beside Britian and France, germany and maybe Italy should get their own nukes, too. The French never have and never will put their arsenal under true full European command or NATO command. But Europe should have nuclear options independently from the US to deter certain aggressions, obviously.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Again, this deal now is predominantly about secuing an ongoing of the German nuclear participation, that the Germans can operate bombers that can carry American nuclear bombs. Without that, the Tornados would already have been phased out since a few years, most likely. This is not meant to replace the full conventional fighter fleet. The germans have showed to be unable to get their homework for a Tornado-replacement done since many, many years. Now there is panic.

My biggest argument against the F-35 is the logistics behind maintaining it, and the dependency on US-provided certified US technicians. Key components in the planes delivered to foreign customers are not allowed to be maintained by national workers, but only by American personennel. Also, spare parts again make us depending on the US. Its also an intel breach concern, since this arrangement gives the US a deep insight into operations and plans of these foreign customers. Availabiltiy and delivery of spare parts also will be a concern if the US gets engaged in a longer conflict in asia and has own losses it must compensate then. Now wonder where Lockheed'S loyalties and liabilties then will prioritize!

But we cannot come up with a new plane by ourselves in just 2 years. The new European super-wonder-miracle fighter is expected not before 2040 or later - and then it will suffer from plenty of teethign problems, and will need more years to mature, and then will be bought in ridiculously low numbers becasue it will be so hilariously expensive.

We slept too long. Now there are only compromises left, none of them comes without serious disadvantages.

Beside Britian and France, germany and maybe Italy should get their own nukes, too. The French never have and never will put their arsenal under true full European command or NATO command. But Europe should have nuclear options independently from the US to deter certain aggressions, obviously.

With the actions of Russia at the forefront of the news and Putin wanting a remake of the former Soviet Union, What you have said makes a lot of sense. For years, Germany neglected contributing enough of it GNP's to it's own defense. I think now, Germany sees how foolhardy this action was.


With regards to the F-15's and F-16s, I'm quite certain they can all be configured to use a wide variety of munitions, if you know what I mean.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Again, this deal now is predominantly about secuing an ongoing of the German nuclear participation, that the Germans can operate bombers that can carry American nuclear bombs. Without that, the Tornados would already have been phased out since a few years, most likely. This is not meant to replace the full conventional fighter fleet. The germans have showed to be unable to get their homework for a Tornado-replacement done since many, many years. Now there is panic.

My biggest argument against the F-35 is the logistics behind maintaining it, and the dependency on US-provided certified US technicians. Key components in the planes delivered to foreign customers are not allowed to be maintained by national workers, but only by American personennel. Also, spare parts again make us depending on the US. Its also an intel breach concern, since this arrangement gives the US a deep insight into operations and plans of these foreign customers. Availabiltiy and delivery of spare parts also will be a concern if the US gets engaged in a longer conflict in asia and has own losses it must compensate then. Now wonder where Lockheed'S loyalties and liabilties then will prioritize!

But we cannot come up with a new plane by ourselves in just 2 years. The new European super-wonder-miracle fighter is expected not before 2040 or later - and then it will suffer from plenty of teethign problems, and will need more years to mature, and then will be bought in ridiculously low numbers becasue it will be so hilariously expensive.

We slept too long. Now there are only compromises left, none of them comes without serious disadvantages.

Beside Britian and France, germany and maybe Italy should get their own nukes, too. The French never have and never will put their arsenal under true full European command or NATO command. But Europe should have nuclear options independently from the US to deter certain aggressions, obviously.

Say what you want of Trump, he warned you and even demanded Euro NATO nations increase their defense and funding to NATO 2% of GDP. Now there's a rush to do so.

[Skybird]

Kai, the F-35 is licensed to carry US nuclear bombs, and that is what the German buying is about. The Eurofighter could be certified by the Americans to carry them as well, but the machines are still not fully equipped for that AFAIK and the Americans additionally delay the process (to sell their own stuff, I assume). A nuclear carrier is needed by the Germans to maintain the so-called "nukleare Teilhabe", while the Tornados get phased out over the years (they were the nuclear carriers so far). The 35 F-35s (if they really stick to that number, I think it will get reduced over time) do not fully replace the fleet of Eurofighters.

I am like Commander Adama, I do not feel comfortable with all this heavy dependency on networking. One infiltration, one vulnerability exploited - and not just a local or regional capability of the military goes down, but the complete network. Fear the Cylon computer virus!

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Kai, the F-35 is licensed to carry US nuclear bombs, and that is what the German buying is about.

I generally agree but the Tornado or at last one of its types can carry the 20 US-made B61 nuclear bombs stockpiled in Germany as part of NATO nuclear sharing. Maybe there are newer bombs needing other racks and hardpoints and the Tornado cannot be used for them? The Eurofighter is not ready for this, yes.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I generally agree but the Tornado or at last one of its types can carry the 20 US-made B61 nuclear bombs stockpiled in Germany as part of NATO nuclear sharing. Maybe there are newer bombs needing other racks and hardpoints and the Tornado cannot be used for them? The Eurofighter is not ready for this, yes.

Its about the bombs the US has stored in Germany, the B61 block 3 and 4. 15 to 20 are estimated to be still stored here. Two years ago I think I red the US planned to modernise them or replace them with newer stuff. I dont know what came of that.

Russia has a masisve advanatge at tactical nukes, and they are already stationed in forward attack positions, namely Kaliningrad. The West has comporably little numbers of equal-sized weapons ready to retaliate on the battlefield, and would need to fall back to strategic nukes earlier, therefore. Thus, Berlin can be ashered by the Russians with around 4 minutes prewarning time. If they use their hypersonic missiles with a nuclear warhead - even less. In plain German that means: no warning time of practical use at all.