Governmental "feature creep"?

[Ducimus]

Warning: I might be making a Yubba post here.


So Recently a House Bill was brought to my attention, and it sounds somewhat innocent enough by itself. However, an argument was made that this bill, is one to really watch because it's going to label people and give the government the legal means they shouldn't have.

So I looked at what I think is the supporting evidence of this argument, and I think that they are either correct, or playing "connect the dots" a little bit too much.That said, i'm mostly convinced to think they are correct that this is a bill to watch, but I say that with some reservation of doubt. In fact with these things, i always keep the thought in the back of my mind, that things can be entirely read into too much. Reading too much into something, i think is how conspiracy theories and other misc forms of crackpottery are made. So I always keep that mental reservation.

So what is this bill?

H.R. 1584: Empowering Local Partners to Prevent Terrorism Act of 2013

To amend the Homeland Security Act of 2002 to prevent terrorism, including terrorism associated with homegrown violent extremism and domestic violent extremism, and for other purposes.

Now, the keywords to be concerned with is "homegrown violent extremism".

The actual text from the bill defines the following.

SEC. 899K. DEFINITIONS.

‘In this subtitle:

‘(1) VIOLENT EXTREMISM- The term ‘violent extremism’ means supporting or committing ideologically motivated violence.

So to meet this criteria, you either support a an ideological motivated act of violence, OR you initiated the act yourself. Now, considering this is a violent act were talking about, it sounds fair enough, although the "supporting" bit sounds like a little bit of a slippery slope to me.


So why would this generally be of concern?

Rewind to 2009,
the DHS accidently released their now infamous "Domestic Extremism Lexicon". (hang onto your butts, were entering alex jones territory!)

The document itself (you can see an archive of it here ). In it there is a group of people that made the list of what is considered to be a domestic extremist.

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
Page 7 of 11
(U) patriot movement
A term used by rightwing extremists to link their beliefs to those commonly associated with the American Revolution. The patriot movement primarily comprises violent antigovernment groups such as militias and sovereign citizens.

Ok, so in other words, crazy dudes in montana wearing combat fatigues, talking to God on a two way radio. Alright, I can go along with that. This sounds like a group that should probably be on the list. No problem.

But then it goes on further and says:

(also: Christian patriots, patriot group, Constitutionalists, Constitutionist)

Whoooaaaa there! Stop the bus! The hell you say? If i believe in the Constitution I'm now a domestic extremist? Ok, so the DHS completely disavows this list and they say it was not ever in official use. Ok, so,for the sake of being fair, and not diving too far into the deep end of the crazy pool, i'll accept the government explanation for now. Though I have to wonder, if it was not ever an officially used document, then why does it exist? It certainly looks official.


So lets fast forward from 2009 to 2011.
This bit of news you'll find saturating your search engine results. This is the most credible article i could find, though even it smacks of Alex Jones.

Ridiculous DHS list: You might be a domestic terrorist if...
Sounds like the same DHS list i inked to from 2009 right?

An 18-year veteran in law enforcement warned to beware of Homeland Security training that is being pushed to local law enforcement. "You might be a Domestic Terrorist If" you believe in civil liberties, or if you actually believe in your Constitutional rights. Sadly, this is NOT a joke.

The article then goes on about what the DHS defines as a domestic terrorist. The main source of the article seems to stem from a blog post made by someone who claims be an 18year law enforcement veteran.

Beware of Homeland Security Training for Local Law Enforcement, by An Insider
Said article, which I can't drill down and find a source past a blog post, is basically giving this list of how one becomes defined as being a "domestic terrorist".

These federal trainers describe the dangers of “extremists” and “militia groups” roaming the community and hiding in plain sight, ready to attack. Officers are instructed how to recognize these domestic terrorists by their behavior, views and common characteristics. State data bases are kept to track suspected domestic terrorists and officers are instructed on reporting procedures to state and federal agencies. The state I work in, like many others, have what is known as a “fusion center” that compiles a watch list of suspicious people.

So how does a person qualify as a potential domestic terrorist? Based on the training I have attended, here are characteristics that qualify:

Expressions of libertarian philosophies (statements, bumper stickers)
Second Amendment-oriented views (NRA or gun club membership, holding a CCW permit)
Survivalist literature (fictional books such as "Patriots" and "One Second After" are mentioned by name)
Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)
Fear of economic collapse (buying gold and barter items)
Religious views concerning the book of Revelation (apocalypse, anti-Christ)
Expressed fears of Big Brother or big government
Homeschooling
Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties
Belief in a New World Order conspiracy

Really? WOW. If this is true, then I am royally screwed. (edit: cause Im libertarian minded, a supporter of 2A, NRA member, have a CCW, and slightly worried about economic collapse. )
Ok back to reality, one of two things is going on here.

a.) This is either some prankster playing on the fears of the previously leaked DHS lexicon, which is entirely plausible and even likely, or
b.) this writer of the blog post is genuine. He does sound like an insider and a conscientious objector for lack of a better term.

The trouble here is, either decision as to authenticity is an assumption when you consider current events. Fast forward to the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012, and the whole indefinite detention of Americans without a trial bit. The law, it's interpretations, and controversy's are well documented. Fast forward another year, and now we have NSA scandal. A few months ago, PRISM was solidly in the realm of conspiracy theorists, but today is a fact.

What do you think? Governmental "power creep"? Too much "connect the dots"? Or something else entirely?


As an aside, i suspect I'm gonna regret making this post. Yubba jokes at my expense and all that.

[garren]

I'm convinced that the extremists on the left are the real threat to America.

[Jimbuna]

Subscribed to...just sayin.

[eddie]

Good luck Ducimus on getting some constructive replies, but I think that they will be in the minority!

[soopaman2]

I'll try one for constructive reply, but good luck with that!

But it looks alot like an extension of the rights of homeland security and other agencies to spy on Americans.

Too outlandish for anyone?

We kicked the Brits out for less.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ducimus:

Warning: I might be making a Yubba post here.

We have lost another one.


All kidding aside, look at the resent IRS scandal. Certain groups were targeted by the IRS. 41 one of them have filed suit. There is some truth to what you have found based on the extra curricular activity of the IRS. Funny, when questioned about it they plead the 5th.

I think the Patriot Act overreaches and is far to easily manipulated.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by garren

I'm convinced that the extremists on the left are the real threat to America.

lol,

I would laugh and ignore you, but your big bossman the "shrub" created the patriot act.

You of all people should know once a right is lost, it is never given back.

Where were you then? To save us!!!


Keep your partisan agenda driven crap up, and wonder why we minimize or mock you.

You provide for good comic relief.

[Wolferz]

I dunno Ducimus,
While utterly preposterous, it's not out of the realm of possibility. Those in power will always seek to consolidate it in an effort to insure they never lose it.

Eliminating any and all opposition is one sure fire way to do so, a' la Prism and the other NSA domestic spy programs.
Al Qaeda seems an afterthought compared to Al Ciada.
Writing laws to steer opposing political viewers straight into a FEMA camp for quiet execution makes double dog sure that the Libertarians never challenge the good ol' boys and get a foothold inside the beltway.

If we don't keep an eye on these bastages we can all kiss liberty goodbye and watch our free country get turned into a nation of gulags and gestapo. The infrastructure is all ready and waiting.

http://www.thegeorgiaguidestones.com/message.htm

Check this pile of granite crap.

[Ducimus]

Writing laws to steer opposing political viewers straight into a FEMA camp for quiet execution makes double dog sure that the Libertarians never challenge the good ol' boys and get a foothold inside the beltway.

Just for the record, I do not subscribe to the notion of "Fema camps". The term is a synonym for an internment camp, Gulag, or Concentration camp the way it is used.

My understanding of FEMA doesn't correlate with this idea, as it requires an infrastructure that is far beyond the capabilities of FEMA as an organization. Besides, if you look at the large scale of things, if the government were to institute some kind of camp like that, it would ultimately only serve to galvanize public opinion in a way that is not desirable by those in charge once the public found out about it.

No, if our government were to starting hauling people away, it would be select individuals, and it would done in a very quiet manner. (Insert NDAA references here) More likely then that though, they would first make an example of someone in an all out smear campaign to discredit them. Once someone is thoroughly discredited, their words hold no weight with the public. I think a point here is that those in charge are most interested in "Status quo", and will avoid ( edit: Or prevent ) any disruptions to it.

While Interment camps in WW2 is a reality, I don't think "FEMA camps" are realistic.

[soopaman2]

Ducimus, alot of the FEMA camp rubbish comes from trailers provided to hurricane Katrina victims.

They took pics of makeshift trailor parks, and turned them into the legend of FEMA camps.


If anyone will enslave us it will not be FEMA, it will be ourselves. For not revolting as noted in our declaration of independance.
http://www.founding.com/the_declarat...26/default.asp

The Declaration's fourth and final self-evident truth is that when a government destroys rather than secures its citizens' unalienable rights, those citizens have a right to revolution. This follows logically from the preceding principles. Government exists to protect rights; if it isn't doing this, the people should get rid of it and set up a new one.

A document I hold sacred, it laid the groundwork to the rights afforded in the constitution, and the country I love!

Our rights as humans, and free from government tyranny.

But real Americans do not exist.


I guess the NSA is really watching me now.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ducimus:

My understanding of FEMA doesn't correlate with this idea, as it requires an infrastructure that is far beyond the capabilities of FEMA as an organization. Besides, if you look at the large scale of things, if the government were to institute some kind of camp like that, it would ultimately only serve to galvanize public opinion in a way that is not desirable by those in charge once the public found out about it.

It is infrastructure that is not beyond FEMA's capabilities. Worked with FEMA since Katrina, they bungle a lot but also excel sometimes. FEMA is capable of reacting to incidents across the globe. Haiti and Pago Pago for example. The "camps" are really just a sea of mobile homes for those that "just can't seem to find their way back to society" after a storm. FEMA golden ticket type deal. However, making camps of any kind is not their gig.

FEMA is the least of the worries. They are more of a reactive clean up crew.

[garren]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Those in power will always seek to consolidate it in an effort to insure they never lose it.

Agreed. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I fear it's going to be our children or even their children who are going to have to do what must be done to correct the problems we should have corrected in our lifetime.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by garren

Agreed. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I fear it's going to be our children or even their children who are going to have to do what must be done to correct the problems we should have corrected in our lifetime.

Government trust is all but lost. Patriot Act used at will and manipulated to fit the need at the time. IRS delaying/suppressing and stalling conservative groups. NSA debacle. Let's add salt to the wound with completely skewed news media. We all know the usual suspects.

[soopaman2]

For the record, FEMA sucked in helping out with Hurricane/ superstorm/whateaver Sandy.

Almost a year later, people still waiting, congress stalling on aid.

Wheres Al Sharpton, like he was during Katrina? Wheres Kanye West, Obama hate white people (My tribute to his quote george Bush hates Black people)

See it happens to whitey too garren.

I got no warm trailer. I sat in my cold house for 15 days, with no power (or water), and pretty much martial law (you were pulled over by humvees with machine gun for driving at night.

I am not impressed with disaster relief here, the only thing that seemed to work good was the national guard, and thier massive guns, telling me I cannot go to work.

Pardon me If I lost faith in the feds.

I learned alot, you got yourself and your family, some love, and a candle, It was so weird living in the dark ages so long, I started to get used to it.

[AVGWarhawk]

Soopa, it is not a easy task. The final check for Katrina was cut less than a year ago. Be glad any assistance was rendered. Some folks around the world are not as fortunate.