Big change whether we like it or not

Rockstar · 11-20-11, 09:42 AM

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_.../MK17Dj01.html

... Democrats credit Obama's 2009 Cairo speech with inspiring Arabs to throw off their chains. Even more laughably, Republicans credit George W Bush's "liberation" of Iraq for installing democracy in the region and supposedly moving Tunisians, Egyptians, and others to follow suit.

To put it mildly, evidence to support such claims simply does not exist. One might as well attribute the Arab uprising to the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Those expecting Egyptians to erect statues of Obama or Bush in Cairo's Tahrir Square are likely to have a long wait.

Fourth, Beleaguered Europe's Quest for a Lifeline: To a considerable extent, the story of the 20th century - at least the commonly-told Western version of that story - is one of Europe screwing up and America coming to the rescue. The really big screw-ups were, of course, the two world wars. In 1917 and again after December 1941, the United States sent large armies to deal with those who had disturbed the peace. After the first war, the Americans left. After the second, they stayed, not only providing soldiers to safeguard Western Europe, but also rejuvenating the shattered economies of the European democracies.

Even with the passing of a half-century, the Marshall Plan stands out as a singular example of enlightened statecraft - and also as a testimonial to America's unsurpassed economic capacity following World War II. Saving continents in dire distress was a job that only the United States could accomplish.

That was then. Today, Europe has once again screwed up, although fortunately this time there is no need for foreign armies to sort out the mess. The crisis of the moment is an economic one, due entirely to European recklessness and irresponsibility (not qualitatively different from the behavior underlying the American economic crisis).

Will Uncle Sam once again ride to the rescue? Not a chance. Beset with the problems that come with old age, Uncle Sam can't even mount up. To whom, then, can Europe turn for assistance? Recent headlines tell the story:

"Cash-Strapped Europe Looks to China For Help"
"Europe Begs China for Bailout"
"EU takes begging bowl to Beijing"
"Is China the Bailout Saviour in the European Debt Crisis?"

The crucial issue here isn't whether Beijing will actually pull Europe's bacon out of the fire. Rather it's the shifting expectations underlying the moment. After all, hasn't the role of European savior already been assigned? Isn't it supposed to be Washington's in perpetuity? Apparently not ..."

Torplexed · 11-20-11, 10:21 AM

According to AEP's latest, the Japanese and other Asian central banks are dumping German bonds. Traders say Asians are taking profits on bonds and pulling out, with signs that even China's central bank is shaving holdings:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...EMU-chaos.html

If that's the case, it's over. According to the article, Swedish debt (non-euro) is now yielding under German debt for the first time in modern history.

Again, if true, this means the Asians have decided that European leaders can't solve the crisis, and it will bring down Germany when it blows up, meaning German debt is no longer safe. I sure can't see Beijing riding to the rescue. Uncle Sam might try, be he'd be slow getting there in his debt riddled wheelchair.

Sailor Steve · 11-20-11, 10:26 AM

Rockstar, a request: When you do a large copy-and-paste (or any at all) please use the quote function. The way you have it now makes it look like they are your own words.

Platapus · 11-20-11, 10:31 AM

Political parties taking credit for good things that they did not cause and blaming the other political party for bad things the other party did not cause is not exactly breaking news in the US.

It is kinda what we do here.

Skybird · 11-20-11, 10:46 AM

On the Arab uporsies, a major cause were the simple existence of the internet, and access to foreign media and the option to coordinate the uprise. Obama's Cairo speech, Bush's agenda and EU's appeals had little or nothing to dow ith it.

On Europe, the hallucinations here carry on. It should be obvious for even the blindest fool now that the Euro was a terrible mistake and counts as one of the two big disasters in the post-war history of Europe. Spiegel reports however that Merkel wants a German referendum to change the German constitution that way that it will allow and even demand more sovereign powers - amongst them all fiscal and economic powers - of the German government shifted from Berlin to Brussel. Germans seem to be record-holder in self-destruction, it seems - we do it once again with that. France smiles and sees the possibility to get a deciding word to decision-making in German economy and fiannce issues. That Britain complains that there is a Fourth reich in the making wshil repeating its demand to keep all national economies together in one bundle and to evenm expand the EU and allow Turkey in, just shows how very much disconnect from Europe they are.

If we lern one thing from the current events, then that the intrerfsts of the states and the likes and prefernces of the people in Europe are extremnely diverse and different - too diverse and too different as if the idea that there could and should be one singular state with a centralistic, almost totalitarian government holds any realism or pleasurable quality.

Yesterday, a report was püublished saying that Barosso and the debt-.mnakers in the south now demand "return services" (Gegenleistungen) for the fatc that German bonds currently can be sold at record low interest rates. "Return services" implies that the southern nations and Barosso think they did something for Germany for which now they can demand these return services. But what did they do for Germany? Thes elow interest rates ncurrently are just the logical reward by the market that currently thinks the German economy is set up better than the others, and that nGermany can handle its debts. If the interest for other nations is higher, than this is the market'S assessment that the risk nvolved whehn delaing with them is higher, and for that they get the market'S punishment. In what way is the poor performace and forgery in certain nations a benefit for Germany for which these nations can claim "return services"...? Germany guarantees several hundreds of billions, and if looking behind the officiaol numbers and calculating the im0lications of the future that polticians so very much hate to talk about to the public, then we even guarantee for over 2 trillions of foeign debts and EU debts. We have skyrocketted our own debts just to bailit others and guaranteeing these things. They cost us hundreds of biullions and trillions, in the end.

And they have the nerve to tell us we owe them "return services" for that...?

Bloody a****es.

Rockstar · 11-20-11, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Rockstar, a request: When you do a large copy-and-paste (or any at all) please use the quote function. The way you have it now makes it look like they are your own words.

Sorry I placed quotation marks but somehow only the one on the end remains. Don't know why the first one went missing.

TLAM Strike · 11-20-11, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Even more laughably, Republicans credit George W Bush's "liberation" of Iraq for installing democracy in the region and supposedly moving Tunisians, Egyptians, and others to follow suit.

Even more laughably some believe that the revolutions in Egypt, Tunisia, and others installed democracy!

kraznyi_oktjabr · 11-20-11, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Sorry I placed quotation marks but somehow only the one on the end remains. Don't know why the first one went missing.

I think Steve means quote tags [QU0TE] and [/QU0TE] (with "0" replaced with "O" of course).

Sailor Steve · 11-20-11, 03:49 PM

Precisely. Quote tags leave no question as to the origin of the article.

Karle94 · 11-20-11, 05:23 PM

Maybe the vikings comes to Europe´s rescue. Last time I checked (Last year) Norway had around 3000 billion NOK (428 bil EUR, 500 bil USD) in our oil fund.

Skybird · 11-20-11, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karle94

Maybe the vikings comes to Europe´s rescue. Last time I checked (Last year) Norway had around 3000 billion NOK (428 bil EUR, 500 bil USD) in our oil fund.

I know that seasonal rare-light conditions lead to depressions, which can result in suicide. But that depressions lead to brainless dumping of money in black holes in an effort to waste ones own wealth for nothing, is new to me.

Norway would be well-advised to save for when the bad times hits it inevitably in the future (oil). The purpose of savings is to have them available when they are needed - not to spend them just becasue they are there. That is the one vital lesson that European nations, America and Japan have not learned.

And just for the record, it is not as if Norway has money to waste. It'S public debts 2010 equal 44% of the GDP. That is very good compared to other nations (Germany 78%, USA almost 100%, Greece I think aorund 178% and Japan much over 200%). Still it is debt.

Karle94 · 11-20-11, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I know that seasonal rare-light conditions lead to depressions, which can result in suicide. But that depressions lead to brainless dumping of money in black holes in an effort to waste ones own wealth for nothing, is new to me.

Norway would be well-advised to save for when the bad times hits it inevitably in the future (oil). The purpose of savings is to have them available when they are needed - not to spend them just becasue they are there. That is the one vital lesson that European nations, America and Japan have not learned.

And just for the record, it is not as if Norway has money to waste. It'S public debts 2010 equal 44% of the GDP. That is very good compared to other nations (Germany 78%, USA almost 100%, Greece I think aorund 178% and Japan much over 200%). Still it is debt.

And it´s not like any money from the oil funs is going to be used. We save it for a rainy day. We use about 4% of the income from oil every year. We have money for foreign aid, but not hospitals, schools and roads.

Ducimus · 11-21-11, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_.../MK17Dj01.html

Interesting article in full. A harsh and unvarnished examination of the current day situation that is sure to draw out the local ideologues like white on rice if they bother to read the whole thing.

soopaman2 · 11-21-11, 02:03 PM

I for one welcome our new Chinese warlords.

I am one to look at the end game, and it ends with China Owning most the world economically.

Ducimus · 11-21-11, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I for one welcome our new Chinese warlords.
.

Heh, I don't. I'd rather we go back to the way we used to do things that made us great... you know... before we started selling ourselves out and CEO's outsourcing US jobs so places like walmart could sell chinese made crap on the cheap. But those days, are long gone, and they ain't ever coming back.

11-20-11, 09:42 AM	#1
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Big change whether we like it or not http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_.../MK17Dj01.html ... Democrats credit Obama's 2009 Cairo speech with inspiring Arabs to throw off their chains. Even more laughably, Republicans credit George W Bush's "liberation" of Iraq for installing democracy in the region and supposedly moving Tunisians, Egyptians, and others to follow suit. To put it mildly, evidence to support such claims simply does not exist. One might as well attribute the Arab uprising to the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Those expecting Egyptians to erect statues of Obama or Bush in Cairo's Tahrir Square are likely to have a long wait. Fourth, Beleaguered Europe's Quest for a Lifeline: To a considerable extent, the story of the 20th century - at least the commonly-told Western version of that story - is one of Europe screwing up and America coming to the rescue. The really big screw-ups were, of course, the two world wars. In 1917 and again after December 1941, the United States sent large armies to deal with those who had disturbed the peace. After the first war, the Americans left. After the second, they stayed, not only providing soldiers to safeguard Western Europe, but also rejuvenating the shattered economies of the European democracies. Even with the passing of a half-century, the Marshall Plan stands out as a singular example of enlightened statecraft - and also as a testimonial to America's unsurpassed economic capacity following World War II. Saving continents in dire distress was a job that only the United States could accomplish. That was then. Today, Europe has once again screwed up, although fortunately this time there is no need for foreign armies to sort out the mess. The crisis of the moment is an economic one, due entirely to European recklessness and irresponsibility (not qualitatively different from the behavior underlying the American economic crisis). Will Uncle Sam once again ride to the rescue? Not a chance. Beset with the problems that come with old age, Uncle Sam can't even mount up. To whom, then, can Europe turn for assistance? Recent headlines tell the story: "Cash-Strapped Europe Looks to China For Help" "Europe Begs China for Bailout" "EU takes begging bowl to Beijing" "Is China the Bailout Saviour in the European Debt Crisis?" The crucial issue here isn't whether Beijing will actually pull Europe's bacon out of the fire. Rather it's the shifting expectations underlying the moment. After all, hasn't the role of European savior already been assigned? Isn't it supposed to be Washington's in perpetuity? Apparently not ..."

11-20-11, 10:21 AM	#2
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	According to AEP's latest, the Japanese and other Asian central banks are dumping German bonds. Traders say Asians are taking profits on bonds and pulling out, with signs that even China's central bank is shaving holdings: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...EMU-chaos.html If that's the case, it's over. According to the article, Swedish debt (non-euro) is now yielding under German debt for the first time in modern history. Again, if true, this means the Asians have decided that European leaders can't solve the crisis, and it will bring down Germany when it blows up, meaning German debt is no longer safe. I sure can't see Beijing riding to the rescue. Uncle Sam might try, be he'd be slow getting there in his debt riddled wheelchair. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

11-20-11, 10:26 AM	#3
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Rockstar, a request: When you do a large copy-and-paste (or any at all) please use the quote function. The way you have it now makes it look like they are your own words. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo Last edited by Sailor Steve; 11-20-11 at 10:36 AM.

11-20-11, 10:31 AM	#4
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,361 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Political parties taking credit for good things that they did not cause and blaming the other political party for bad things the other party did not cause is not exactly breaking news in the US. It is kinda what we do here. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

11-20-11, 10:46 AM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,603 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	On the Arab uporsies, a major cause were the simple existence of the internet, and access to foreign media and the option to coordinate the uprise. Obama's Cairo speech, Bush's agenda and EU's appeals had little or nothing to dow ith it. On Europe, the hallucinations here carry on. It should be obvious for even the blindest fool now that the Euro was a terrible mistake and counts as one of the two big disasters in the post-war history of Europe. Spiegel reports however that Merkel wants a German referendum to change the German constitution that way that it will allow and even demand more sovereign powers - amongst them all fiscal and economic powers - of the German government shifted from Berlin to Brussel. Germans seem to be record-holder in self-destruction, it seems - we do it once again with that. France smiles and sees the possibility to get a deciding word to decision-making in German economy and fiannce issues. That Britain complains that there is a Fourth reich in the making wshil repeating its demand to keep all national economies together in one bundle and to evenm expand the EU and allow Turkey in, just shows how very much disconnect from Europe they are. If we lern one thing from the current events, then that the intrerfsts of the states and the likes and prefernces of the people in Europe are extremnely diverse and different - too diverse and too different as if the idea that there could and should be one singular state with a centralistic, almost totalitarian government holds any realism or pleasurable quality. Yesterday, a report was püublished saying that Barosso and the debt-.mnakers in the south now demand "return services" (Gegenleistungen) for the fatc that German bonds currently can be sold at record low interest rates. "Return services" implies that the southern nations and Barosso think they did something for Germany for which now they can demand these return services. But what did they do for Germany? Thes elow interest rates ncurrently are just the logical reward by the market that currently thinks the German economy is set up better than the others, and that nGermany can handle its debts. If the interest for other nations is higher, than this is the market'S assessment that the risk nvolved whehn delaing with them is higher, and for that they get the market'S punishment. In what way is the poor performace and forgery in certain nations a benefit for Germany for which these nations can claim "return services"...? Germany guarantees several hundreds of billions, and if looking behind the officiaol numbers and calculating the im0lications of the future that polticians so very much hate to talk about to the public, then we even guarantee for over 2 trillions of foeign debts and EU debts. We have skyrocketted our own debts just to bailit others and guaranteeing these things. They cost us hundreds of biullions and trillions, in the end. And they have the nerve to tell us we owe them "return services" for that...? Bloody a**es. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.**

11-20-11, 03:49 PM	#9
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Precisely. Quote tags leave no question as to the origin of the article. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-20-11, 05:23 PM	#10
Karle94 The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Norseland Posts: 1,355 Downloads: 253 Uploads: 0	Maybe the vikings comes to Europe´s rescue. Last time I checked (Last year) Norway had around 3000 billion NOK (428 bil EUR, 500 bil USD) in our oil fund. __________________ Find my mods here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/lzgciodldp58p/SH4_Mods My SH4 blog here: http://karle94.blogspot.com/

11-21-11, 02:03 PM	#14
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	I for one welcome our new Chinese warlords. I am one to look at the end game, and it ends with China Owning most the world economically. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.