Circular Run Torpedoes

Skubber · 09-03-09, 07:46 AM

I lost two careers due to inexplicable detonations ... it took the second time wondering how the heck I'd been blown out of the water before I had the "aha!"

The last time I fired and the steam wake wasn't where I was expecting, I immediately went to external cam, and sure enough there was the fish going in a nice, perfect circle. Fortunately I was deep enough to avoid being taken out a third time.

I realized a flaw in my tactics is that I like to fire my salvo from a stationary position.

New motto: Never shoot and stand still.

DigitalAura · 09-03-09, 10:41 AM

?? your own torpedo would veer after you? I wonder if this is a glitch or if they legitimately modeled the torpedoes inherent design problems into the game??

gAiNiAc · 09-03-09, 10:48 AM

It has certainly happened to me. I even survived once....In an S-boat!

Sailor Steve · 09-03-09, 10:48 AM

USS Tang, skippered by the famous Dick O'Kane, was sunk by a circle-runner, which is why they are in the game. Some other subs were lost without any explanation, and that is considered to be one of the possibilities.
http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/ss-306.html

SteamWake · 09-03-09, 11:06 AM

Yes they are modeled in the game, as well as incorrect settings in the targeting computer can result in them as well.

Keep a track on those fisheys

Armistead · 09-03-09, 11:15 AM

Yes they are and I've had several a good career ruined by them. The bad thing is no sonar man to let you know they're straight and normal. I've been hit at periscope depth several times......

What's funny is I've had circle runners sink dd's several times. They come chasing you and find a circle torp to meet them.

Course mines can ruin your day also.

Munchausen · 09-03-09, 11:15 AM

Dick O'Kane has a couple autobiographies that are well worth reading. You might find either or both of them at your local lending library.

Quote:

What's funny is I've had circle runners sink dd's several times. They come chasing you and find a circle torp to meet them.

According to some skippers (including, IIRC, O'Kane), that's what they were designed to do. When tactics changed, the function was disabled ... but, evidently, not always.

DigitalAura · 09-03-09, 11:22 AM

I'd love to read them, what are the titles?

SteamWake · 09-03-09, 11:27 AM

"Designed to do so?"

Maybe if you launched one set 30 40 degrees offset with no target, yea they act as designed.

But designed to run around and catch a DD mmmmm I dont think so.

Later on there are torpedoes can be shot off into the blue and will run a random pattern till they pick somethin up. Just try to be sure that something aint you.

But circular runners by design... the risk is just to great.

Munchausen · 09-03-09, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalAura

...what are the titles?

"Wahoo" and "Clear the Bridge."

Quote:

But designed to run around and catch a DD mmmmm I dont think so.

Try reading "Submarines at War," by Edwin P. Hoyt. See what he says about circular torpedoes on page 268 ... maybe you're right (I no longer have the book available). Maybe I read that explanation somewhere else. I do know that O'Kane suspected (prior to more recent information) a circular run as the cause for Mush Morton's demise ... O'Kane, too, had something to say about the why and wherefore of such torpedo behavior.

SteamWake · 09-03-09, 11:44 AM

Wait a minute, you dont have the book but remember the page number !

Munchausen · 09-03-09, 12:11 PM

I took notes.

When SH3 first came out, I went to the library and checked out (and read) all the books on U-Boats. When SH4 came out, I did the same thing. Concurrently, I also read here, at the forum, a number of "assumptions" about what fleet boats could and could not do. Many of the assumptions were B.S. and, as the B.S. got to the point where guys were demanding changes to reflect their uninformed assumptions, I (and others ... RR, for example) started posting facts. Naturally, facts require proof. So I provided quotes from the books.

Unfortunately, some of the same assumptions came up time and time again. Along with the demands to change SH4. So, since the books belong to the library (and I don't care to go running back to the library and re-read a book every time I need a quote), I wrote down the page numbers.

ETR3(SS) · 09-03-09, 01:30 PM

Gotta love people who think they know more/better than you. I've had people "tell" me all about the navy and they never served a day in the military.

Armistead · 09-03-09, 09:15 PM

A great read is "Escape from the deep" about the Tang's last patrol. The Tang was the only sub in WW2 where many crew members actually escaped from a sunk sub in about 300 ft of water. Obvious a circle runner did the Tang in. The book goe's into details about how they escaped, how many died trying and others too scared or wounded waited for death as they watched others try to escape.

Also get's into detail about the survivors being captured and what they went through as POW.s.

Frederf · 09-04-09, 02:14 AM

From my understanding and reading circle runners were indeed real (no surprise there) but that long periods of time between tube flood and torpedo firing were causing corrosion that made them more likely to stick at full rudder when executing a gyro turn. I don't think a 0 angle shot could ever be a circle runner as it couldn't stick the rudder. I don't know if a very small gyro angle (1-10 deg or so) would ever command full rudder on the torpedo or if it would due to a "bang bang" steering type.

Improvements to the rudder posts (better grade of metal IIRC) as well as I think floodings much sooner to launch significantly reduced the problem.

09-03-09, 07:46 AM	#1
Skubber Officer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rochester, NY, USA Posts: 239 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Circular Run Torpedoes I lost two careers due to inexplicable detonations ... it took the second time wondering how the heck I'd been blown out of the water before I had the "aha!" The last time I fired and the steam wake wasn't where I was expecting, I immediately went to external cam, and sure enough there was the fish going in a nice, perfect circle. Fortunately I was deep enough to avoid being taken out a third time. I realized a flaw in my tactics is that I like to fire my salvo from a stationary position. New motto: Never shoot and stand still. __________________ "I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way." - Captain John Paul Jones, 1778

09-03-09, 10:41 AM	#2
DigitalAura Straight and True Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: CANADA Posts: 276 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	?? your own torpedo would veer after you? I wonder if this is a glitch or if they legitimately modeled the torpedoes inherent design problems into the game?? __________________ ... ALL YOUR BEACH ARE BELONG TO US! ...

09-03-09, 10:48 AM	#3
gAiNiAc Weps Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 369 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	It has certainly happened to me. I even survived once....In an S-boat! __________________

09-03-09, 10:48 AM	#4
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	USS Tang, skippered by the famous Dick O'Kane, was sunk by a circle-runner, which is why they are in the game. Some other subs were lost without any explanation, and that is considered to be one of the possibilities. http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/ss-306.html __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

09-03-09, 11:06 AM	#5
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Yes they are modeled in the game, as well as incorrect settings in the targeting computer can result in them as well. Keep a track on those fisheys __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

09-03-09, 11:15 AM	#6
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Yes they are and I've had several a good career ruined by them. The bad thing is no sonar man to let you know they're straight and normal. I've been hit at periscope depth several times...... What's funny is I've had circle runners sink dd's several times. They come chasing you and find a circle torp to meet them. Course mines can ruin your day also.

09-03-09, 11:22 AM	#8
DigitalAura Straight and True Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: CANADA Posts: 276 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I'd love to read them, what are the titles? __________________ ... ALL YOUR BEACH ARE BELONG TO US! ...

09-03-09, 11:27 AM	#9
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	"Designed to do so?" Maybe if you launched one set 30 40 degrees offset with no target, yea they act as designed. But designed to run around and catch a DD mmmmm I dont think so. Later on there are torpedoes can be shot off into the blue and will run a random pattern till they pick somethin up. Just try to be sure that something aint you. But circular runners by design... the risk is just to great. __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

09-03-09, 11:44 AM	#11
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Wait a minute, you dont have the book but remember the page number ! __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

09-03-09, 12:11 PM	#12
Munchausen Commodore Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 608 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 1	I took notes. When SH3 first came out, I went to the library and checked out (and read) all the books on U-Boats. When SH4 came out, I did the same thing. Concurrently, I also read here, at the forum, a number of "assumptions" about what fleet boats could and could not do. Many of the assumptions were B.S. and, as the B.S. got to the point where guys were demanding changes to reflect their uninformed assumptions, I (and others ... RR, for example) started posting facts. Naturally, facts require proof. So I provided quotes from the books. Unfortunately, some of the same assumptions came up time and time again. Along with the demands to change SH4. So, since the books belong to the library (and I don't care to go running back to the library and re-read a book every time I need a quote), I wrote down the page numbers.

09-03-09, 01:30 PM	#13
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	Gotta love people who think they know more/better than you. I've had people "tell" me all about the navy and they never served a day in the military. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

09-03-09, 09:15 PM	#14
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	A great read is "Escape from the deep" about the Tang's last patrol. The Tang was the only sub in WW2 where many crew members actually escaped from a sunk sub in about 300 ft of water. Obvious a circle runner did the Tang in. The book goe's into details about how they escaped, how many died trying and others too scared or wounded waited for death as they watched others try to escape. Also get's into detail about the survivors being captured and what they went through as POW.s.

09-04-09, 02:14 AM	#15
Frederf Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 665 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 1	From my understanding and reading circle runners were indeed real (no surprise there) but that long periods of time between tube flood and torpedo firing were causing corrosion that made them more likely to stick at full rudder when executing a gyro turn. I don't think a 0 angle shot could ever be a circle runner as it couldn't stick the rudder. I don't know if a very small gyro angle (1-10 deg or so) would ever command full rudder on the torpedo or if it would due to a "bang bang" steering type. Improvements to the rudder posts (better grade of metal IIRC) as well as I think floodings much sooner to launch significantly reduced the problem.