[TEC] Getting aircraft to attack periscopes

tater · 06-03-07, 11:49 AM

You always read about subs that are not even surfaced being attacked by aircraft. In game this never happens, certainly not earlier in the war.

I notice that the big planes get radar at some point. I need to test and see if H8Ks after they get radar can/will attack a periscope. It would be interesting if this was possible.

If no tweaking to the visual "sensor" would allow this, my thought was that perhaps it might be faked with an extremely short-ranged radar added to the plane eqp files. It's sole purpose would be to change the detection chances so that the results more closely mimic reality, it would be a "fake" radar.

Make any sense?

Jace11 · 06-03-07, 12:25 PM

Yup, agreed, ships dont see the scope, planes dont see it either..

One idea...

I wondered whether it was possible to make a new sensor for AI aircraft. it would be a visual sensor like normal, except it is active at a negative depth..

it would have a very short range, say 1 km but once inside that range ...

the sensor height instead of say 0 to 10000 would be about -5 to 10000?

What would happen then.. could it see you just under the surface or at peri-depth

like other visual sensors it would be effected by fog, light waves etc..

tater · 06-03-07, 12:36 PM

Good idea!

donut · 06-03-07, 01:16 PM

Having spent time served in USCG.air search,& rescue. Seeing a scope @2,000 feet is not possible,if there is no wake,due to same. My contention is perhaps from (stable platform) surface craft @ 1/2 visual range,air craft:less than 1,000ft.only if sub @ flank/full.(IMHO)

If there is any wind ocean is white with foam,(No wake) . .With MK52 gun fire control radar, periscope will not return a pip signal to indicate same. In 1961.

tater · 06-03-07, 02:08 PM

Useful. I was thinking some sort of additional "sensor" that we'd make up sepcifically for the task. We can set the range to X meters, that doesn't matter as long as it's realistic. I don;t want to always get spotted, it'd be nice to worry about it, though.

I do know that from rereading Blair, it seems to have happened fairly often.

Water clarity/depth might have something to do with it as well. In shallows, the sub might stand out vs light sandy bottom in clear pacific water. I was on Kauai a month ago, and you could read a newpaper at the bottom if you dropped it off the boat.

leovampire · 06-03-07, 03:26 PM

I like having to dive and hide from planes it actualy gives me a reason to dive other than on an attack from me but having them detect my scope once I am down no F---King Way.

I haited that about SHIII could be going along at time compression and sudenly getting hit by plane bombs because I didn't notice the stealth meter went red. The Radar was way too sensitive in that game for the planes. Use to piss me off big time.

And seeing in this game there is no quick way to get to home base it would make things worse in that respect.

Jace11 · 06-03-07, 03:43 PM

well i am concerned about the scopes, but aircraft should and could be able to see a boat at peri-depth in the right conditions

donut · 06-03-07, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I do know that from rereading Blair, it seems to have happened fairly often.

Water clarity/depth might have something to do with it as well. In shallows, the sub might stand out vs light sandy bottom in clear pacific water. I was on Kauai a month ago, and you could read a newspaper at the bottom if you dropped it off the boat.

Now you have the real detection from the air,MK 2 eye ball.

Shallow ! This would be scary,if implamented.(but fun)!real.

Bando · 06-03-07, 04:12 PM

Hello Tater,

I'm still in active naval duty today. I've served some 30 years as a subhunter. Starting as a sonar operator gradually made my way up via helicopter crewmember to chief of the opsroom in an ASW frigate.:p

To spot a feather (wake from a moving subs periscope) is hard when there is a seastate of 4 or more. (about 1 meter waves, little white on top). When the sub does not move in those (or worse conditions) it's virtually impossible to spot a periscope from a ship, unless it's very close. (500 yds or so). In clear weather, a sea like a table, it's obviously a lot easier to spot a periscope, but the sub knows that as well.

On the other hand, spotting a sub from a helicopter has some very interesting points to it. In the Caraibean sea I've seen subs at 40 meter depth when flying at a curtain angle from the sun and at a certain time of day (meaning the sunrays had to penetrate the water in a certain angle.)

Spotting a periscope in rougher weather was just as hard as it is from a ship.

A submarine can be given away by sea life. I've witnessed (more than once I might @) dolphins in a "V" shaped group in the sea. It looked like a living arrow. When we came flying there and stooped to lower our active sonar about 1000yards in front of that "V" shape we promptly had sonarcontact with high doppler. Mind you, the sub was deep, nevertheless the dolphins gave him away.

Flying in that helo we had a searchlight sonar, meaning we could sent soundwaves in a 30 degree angle and not all around, just like the early sonars on board warships in the second WW. This means the sonar operator has to be very alert ALL the time. This is a weak spot on every navy craft, for staying at your tops for a prolonged period is hard.

Same for the aviators. Flying ours and ours over the ocean looking for a sub, a survivor or life raft is extremely hard to maintain and sooner or later your alertness weakens.

So, looking into the water to see a shallow sub is possible when the weather conditions are right. Seeing a periscope in a body of water without waves is possible. At windforce 3/4, seastates 4 or more it's a lucky shot if you ever see one.

Don't know if it helps, just adding to the subject.

Regards,
Bando

Jace11 · 06-03-07, 04:18 PM

Yup. Maybe it is fine as is then... was just an idea..

tater · 06-03-07, 04:39 PM

Everything helps. I was saying periscope, but really I mean periscope depth.

I have no idea what it should really be like, but I'm rereading Silent Victory, and I just read maybe the 4th attack on a submerged sub (daytime) by aircraft and it's just past Midway, lol. Something spotted them, and this was too early for aircraft with radar for the IJN.

Bando · 06-03-07, 04:57 PM

Well, spotting a sub at periscope depth can be easy in clear blue water. Have you ever been to Shanghai and the sea in it's neighborhood?
it's like soup, you won't see anything there. In a clear blue ocean on a sunny day, with not much swell you'll see a sub at periscope depth from quite a distance as a dark spot in the water. Every aviator would investigate that dark spot.

It really depends upon the clearness of the water.
As i recall from memories from long ago, we were calibrating a MAD device (to detect submarines magnatic field) off the coast of vietnam. It's some 20 years ago. I recall the water being brownish (150 NM east of the coast) so nothing could be seen. We got a MADMAN from something, performed some figures of 8 and found a solution. We reeld the MAD bird in and went to hover over our firing solution. It went west to the vietnam coast. After about 5 minutes a submarine (he obviously heard us hovering above) surfaced. It was there in an instant. Never saw him rise up from the deep. It turned out to be an old "F" class submarine from the russians. We waved at eachother and went our seperate ways.........

leovampire · 06-03-07, 06:02 PM

they use magnetic fields to detect their food under the sand

vindex · 06-05-07, 10:08 PM

I have had ships see my scope, especially destroyers when they are really close, even with my engines off on silent running. It wasn't sonar either, I wasn't getting pinged. I tested it by reloaded and keeping scope down and they didn't see me. But they have to be really close (less than 1000 feet) to see your scope.

I do notice, however, that the scopes don't seem to have wakes like they did in SH3. Could someone mod this?

tater · 06-05-07, 10:14 PM

Turns out that in the stock game DDs have radar. It's air search radar but it shares the same bug as the SD and detects ships and periscopes.

I'm still intrigued with this. Perhaps the mod could be a new active sonar that only goes to a depth of 100ft or so, with very very short range.

A similar technique could be used to mod ijn MAD gear. Active sonar, but with no ping sound. Have the distance it detects from the plane set to 100m or something, low enough flying planes could get you submerged.

tater

06-03-07, 11:49 AM	#1
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	[TEC] Getting aircraft to attack periscopes You always read about subs that are not even surfaced being attacked by aircraft. In game this never happens, certainly not earlier in the war. I notice that the big planes get radar at some point. I need to test and see if H8Ks after they get radar can/will attack a periscope. It would be interesting if this was possible. If no tweaking to the visual "sensor" would allow this, my thought was that perhaps it might be faked with an extremely short-ranged radar added to the plane eqp files. It's sole purpose would be to change the detection chances so that the results more closely mimic reality, it would be a "fake" radar. Make any sense?

06-03-07, 01:16 PM	#4
donut The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The Shifting, Whispering Sands, NM Posts: 1,463 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Capt.tater,Hate to rain on your parade. Having spent time served in USCG.air search,& rescue. Seeing a scope @2,000 feet is not possible,if there is no wake,due to same. My contention is perhaps from (stable platform) surface craft @ 1/2 visual range,air craft:less than 1,000ft.only if sub @ flank/full.(IMHO)If there is any wind ocean is white with foam,(No wake) . .With MK52 gun fire control radar, periscope will not return a pip signal to indicate same. In 1961. Last edited by donut; 06-03-07 at 01:36 PM.

06-03-07, 03:26 PM	#6
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Be honest who or how many would want this I like having to dive and hide from planes it actualy gives me a reason to dive other than on an attack from me but having them detect my scope once I am down no F---King Way. I haited that about SHIII could be going along at time compression and sudenly getting hit by plane bombs because I didn't notice the stealth meter went red. The Radar was way too sensitive in that game for the planes. Use to piss me off big time. And seeing in this game there is no quick way to get to home base it would make things worse in that respect. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

06-03-07, 06:02 PM	#13
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	kind of like what hamer head sharks do they use magnetic fields to detect their food under the sand __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

06-03-07, 12:25 PM	#2
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	Yup, agreed, ships dont see the scope, planes dont see it either.. One idea... I wondered whether it was possible to make a new sensor for AI aircraft. it would be a visual sensor like normal, except it is active at a negative depth.. it would have a very short range, say 1 km but once inside that range ... the sensor height instead of say 0 to 10000 would be about -5 to 10000? What would happen then.. could it see you just under the surface or at peri-depth like other visual sensors it would be effected by fog, light waves etc..

06-03-07, 12:36 PM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Good idea!

06-03-07, 02:08 PM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Useful. I was thinking some sort of additional "sensor" that we'd make up sepcifically for the task. We can set the range to X meters, that doesn't matter as long as it's realistic. I don;t want to always get spotted, it'd be nice to worry about it, though. I do know that from rereading Blair, it seems to have happened fairly often. Water clarity/depth might have something to do with it as well. In shallows, the sub might stand out vs light sandy bottom in clear pacific water. I was on Kauai a month ago, and you could read a newpaper at the bottom if you dropped it off the boat.

06-03-07, 03:43 PM	#7
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	well i am concerned about the scopes, but aircraft should and could be able to see a boat at peri-depth in the right conditions

06-03-07, 04:12 PM	#9
Bando Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Where you don't see me Posts: 607 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Hello Tater, I'm still in active naval duty today. I've served some 30 years as a subhunter. Starting as a sonar operator gradually made my way up via helicopter crewmember to chief of the opsroom in an ASW frigate.:p To spot a feather (wake from a moving subs periscope) is hard when there is a seastate of 4 or more. (about 1 meter waves, little white on top). When the sub does not move in those (or worse conditions) it's virtually impossible to spot a periscope from a ship, unless it's very close. (500 yds or so). In clear weather, a sea like a table, it's obviously a lot easier to spot a periscope, but the sub knows that as well. On the other hand, spotting a sub from a helicopter has some very interesting points to it. In the Caraibean sea I've seen subs at 40 meter depth when flying at a curtain angle from the sun and at a certain time of day (meaning the sunrays had to penetrate the water in a certain angle.) Spotting a periscope in rougher weather was just as hard as it is from a ship. A submarine can be given away by sea life. I've witnessed (more than once I might @) dolphins in a "V" shaped group in the sea. It looked like a living arrow. When we came flying there and stooped to lower our active sonar about 1000yards in front of that "V" shape we promptly had sonarcontact with high doppler. Mind you, the sub was deep, nevertheless the dolphins gave him away. Flying in that helo we had a searchlight sonar, meaning we could sent soundwaves in a 30 degree angle and not all around, just like the early sonars on board warships in the second WW. This means the sonar operator has to be very alert ALL the time. This is a weak spot on every navy craft, for staying at your tops for a prolonged period is hard. Same for the aviators. Flying ours and ours over the ocean looking for a sub, a survivor or life raft is extremely hard to maintain and sooner or later your alertness weakens. So, looking into the water to see a shallow sub is possible when the weather conditions are right. Seeing a periscope in a body of water without waves is possible. At windforce 3/4, seastates 4 or more it's a lucky shot if you ever see one. Don't know if it helps, just adding to the subject. Regards, Bando

06-03-07, 04:18 PM	#10
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	Yup. Maybe it is fine as is then... was just an idea..

06-03-07, 04:39 PM	#11
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Everything helps. I was saying periscope, but really I mean periscope depth. I have no idea what it should really be like, but I'm rereading Silent Victory, and I just read maybe the 4th attack on a submerged sub (daytime) by aircraft and it's just past Midway, lol. Something spotted them, and this was too early for aircraft with radar for the IJN.

06-03-07, 04:57 PM	#12
Bando Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Where you don't see me Posts: 607 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Well, spotting a sub at periscope depth can be easy in clear blue water. Have you ever been to Shanghai and the sea in it's neighborhood? it's like soup, you won't see anything there. In a clear blue ocean on a sunny day, with not much swell you'll see a sub at periscope depth from quite a distance as a dark spot in the water. Every aviator would investigate that dark spot. It really depends upon the clearness of the water. As i recall from memories from long ago, we were calibrating a MAD device (to detect submarines magnatic field) off the coast of vietnam. It's some 20 years ago. I recall the water being brownish (150 NM east of the coast) so nothing could be seen. We got a MADMAN from something, performed some figures of 8 and found a solution. We reeld the MAD bird in and went to hover over our firing solution. It went west to the vietnam coast. After about 5 minutes a submarine (he obviously heard us hovering above) surfaced. It was there in an instant. Never saw him rise up from the deep. It turned out to be an old "F" class submarine from the russians. We waved at eachother and went our seperate ways.........

06-05-07, 10:08 PM	#14
vindex Planesman Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 192 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	I have had ships see my scope, especially destroyers when they are really close, even with my engines off on silent running. It wasn't sonar either, I wasn't getting pinged. I tested it by reloaded and keeping scope down and they didn't see me. But they have to be really close (less than 1000 feet) to see your scope. I do notice, however, that the scopes don't seem to have wakes like they did in SH3. Could someone mod this?

06-05-07, 10:14 PM	#15
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Turns out that in the stock game DDs have radar. It's air search radar but it shares the same bug as the SD and detects ships and periscopes. I'm still intrigued with this. Perhaps the mod could be a new active sonar that only goes to a depth of 100ft or so, with very very short range. A similar technique could be used to mod ijn MAD gear. Active sonar, but with no ping sound. Have the distance it detects from the plane set to 100m or something, low enough flying planes could get you submerged. tater