Was the XXI pointless???

IrischKapitan · 06-19-07, 03:37 PM

By 1943 all hope of restoring power of the atlantic back to the Germans lay in the devolpment of the new electroboots. However by the wars end only two of the new XXI reached active service. I am suprised that the Kreigsmarine did not consider a radical modrinisation of the existing U-boats........

After the war the Royal Navy and the US Navy completly modrenised their boats adding schnorkels, sonar, a new sail and most importantly streamlining the boat. The Guppy series and the T class are good examples of this. The British T class achieved an Underwater speed of 15kn. This was a remarkable acheivement concdiering the design was already ten years old before the conversion began. The T class remained in service from 1938 to 1956

A much faster boat could be created, with little expence and little tecnical risk.

The manufacture of one XXI boat took over 300,000 man hours, although it could take many more because of bombing raids and intruptions (eg. badly made parts)

The VII boat was a sound design, and modifications could have being made on exsisting boats, therefore reducing the amount of time for new boats to be put in active service.

Cosidering all of these I am confused why the Kreigsmarine opted for more costly, complicated and unreliable XXI (although it was an excellent design in theory). I think if the Kreigsmarine radically modrenised their U-Boat fleet in '43, the outcome in the Atlantic may have being different....

Wilko · 06-19-07, 04:03 PM

I have often wondered what would have happened if Germany had had some sane top level leaders that were capable of making sound rational tactical descions, but 20/20 hindsight is a sweet thing isn't it.

Penelope_Grey · 06-19-07, 04:05 PM

Electroboots? Are they made by Doc Martin's?:rotfl:

CCIP · 06-19-07, 04:10 PM

Real historians don't like "what ifs" :p

I think it wasn't all that simple. Firstly, how exactly do you propose to upgrade Type VII's? Secondly, well, is the T class really the same thing? Some WWI boats could do 12kt underwater, but for how long? The only comparable upgrades that brought boats up to something like a XXI would be the postwar Guppy refits - and those would be rather extensive and quite hard to do in wartime.

The Type VIIs were already stuffed. It would be very hard to upgrade them with anything - if you wanted to improve their performance, they'd need a lot more battery power. How do you get the battery power there? The fact is that the XXI did that by using the same exact batteries that the VIIs and IXs had, but it had a lot more of them. The XXI used a lot of the same technology as the other boats, just differently. Meanwhile the VIIs and IXs were already hopelessly obsolete. I think the Germans did an admirable job upgrading them, but they simply came from too old a design philosophy and had no extra room for upgrades. This for example as distinct from the US fleet boats which being a more sophisticated, new-school design with lots of spare room, simply had more capacity to be upgraded and were - and even then after the war and with rather extensive effort being expended on doing so.

Likewise, building the XXIs in sections as they were was a lot more efficient than the VIIs. For all we know, it was perhaps more efficient than upgrading the older fleet.

As for 'what if in 1943...' - well, that was a what-if indeed. The Battle of the Atlantic was very much hanging in balance in early 1943. With the situation having reached a fever pitch for both sides, there is no way the tactics, technology or production priority would be switched then and there. When it was, it was already too late and the U-boats lost the battle.

The XXI was potentially a very dangerous design, but it showed exactly the problems with transitioning to new technology. Of course it was useless, but it wasn't useless by design. If anything was useless by design, it was Adolf's war plans - no XXI would've saved him :hmm:

Penelope_Grey · 06-19-07, 04:13 PM

Though in seriousness, I wouldn't say they were pointless at all, they may have been crap in terms of reliability and use. But, they paved the way for what we have now, they were the first incarnation IMO and my brothers Opinion of the true submarine. Up till the launch of the XXI all the submarines of the world were surface vessels which had the ability to go underwater, they were not intended for extended underwater use, the XXI was.

KeptinCranky · 06-19-07, 04:16 PM

Yep

You can run 15 knots on the surface of water with them :p

Kaleun Klink · 06-19-07, 04:17 PM

It seems the Wehrmacht as a whole, along with Hitler and his inner circle, emphasized the development and production of new "wonder weapons" at the expense of upgrading proven weapon systems. Witness not only the Type XXI but also the Me-262, the Ar-234, the Pzkw VIII Maus, the V-1 and V-2, etc. Some of these clearly were more successful than others, but all drained resources from the production and improvement of older -- but still effective --weapons systems.

Maybe this addiction to new weapons systems was a sign of the Nazis' desperation as the war turned against them, maybe it was a manifestation of Hitler's own psychological makeup... It's worth nothing, though, that the Wehrmacht had wagered on new technologies and tactics before the war began -- e.g., the dive bomber and Blitzkrieg -- and that bet had paid off (at least initially). Perhaps in opting for innovative new weapons systems, rather than upgrading older systems, the Wehrmacht was just staying true to form.

Discuss amongst yourselves... :hmm:

CCIP · 06-19-07, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

they may have been crap in terms of reliability and use

Aren't virtually all new designs? :p

There are only a few fortunate cases of new technology being used most efficiently and not having a huge amount of teething troubles (just think of the US sub fleet in WWII, the pre-war doctrine and its results at the start of the war, and the torpedoes and other stuff - oooh boy! - but in the end those boats were a grand success). The XXI certainly didn't have the time for proper troubleshooting, but I'm sure if it did it would be quite a potent boat. Probably not the almighty uber-boat that some invision, but way ahead of anything of its time.

Kaleun Klink · 06-19-07, 04:22 PM

Hmmm... or perhaps CCIP's more technically-minded explanation is more to the point. Ah, I'm always one to go wool-gathering...

Edit: Oh happy day, from Bilge Rat to Nub! And a much better-looking avatar!

Redshirt · 06-19-07, 04:28 PM

You also have to take in consideration do you completely stop production of an existing type to make the modifications need to your current production lines? and then upgrade your whole fleet which could put them all out of action for several months at least

in war time this often inst a very practical solution.

More of the stock standard and less of the wizzy toys is often whats needed in war time... Germany kinda found that one out the hard way. And if I recall correctly Germany war industry wasn't even working around the clock 24 hours a day till early 43 when they had been at war since 1939!

The Uboats failure imho was simply not enough boats at sea in 1939 to achieve the desired effect.

kiwi_2005 · 06-19-07, 04:30 PM

For the Germans it was pointless cause the war ended! If the XXI was cruising the atlantic around 1941 onwards i think the battle would of been decided...:hmm:

TarJak · 06-19-07, 05:00 PM

Definately not pointless in terms of the development of the first true submarine. Before the XXI U-boats, S-Boats et al were simply submersibles rather than true submarines desinged from the start to operate almost entirely underwater.

In terms of contriuting to the German war effort, well in that they made no significant contribution to that effort so in those terms you could conclude that they were pointless.

If Doenitz could have had the number of boats he wanted to start the war with, at the start of the war, then I think the war would have had a very different ending.

Its a moot point now though. The US, UK and the then USSR benefitted most from the technical advances contributed by the XXI.

Puster Bill · 06-19-07, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Electroboots? Are they made by Doc Martin's?:rotfl:

I don't know, but I do know that they had electroboots, and mohair suits.

/Read it in a magazine.

IrischKapitan · 06-19-07, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Likewise, building the XXIs in sections as they were was a lot more efficient than the VIIs. For all we know, it was perhaps more efficient than upgrading the older fleet.

Yes the XXI was built in sections, but most of them by slave labour. Therefore they were badly manufactured, ill-fitting and when they got to port they were often missing equipment, which added to the lenght of time for them to become operational.

But If they had being avaible in '41 and in suffficent numbers, britian would not have lasted........ Dont get me wrong the tecnology was there, you only have to look at the jappeneese No. 71 sub (nearly always overlooked by historians).

But i think the blame lay with Hitler, he was always sceptical of his U-boat arm
which left donitz to make the best of a bad situation..................

KeptinCranky · 06-19-07, 06:32 PM

as for sticking to the oldies but goodies there's a few examples I could mention like the B52 (which has now been in active service for more than half the time we have powered flight as a species

),or USS Missouri and USS New Jersey and let's not forget they were still using t-34's in the Balkans in the early 1990s

so yes, upgrading the type VII and IX would probably have been better (same goes for pzkfw. IV and VI) but I wouldn't want to have been the officer commanding the British Taskforce when 1 of those type XXIs surfaced right in the middle of them to surrender at the end of the war and they didn't know it was there

, that definitely puts a dent in your promotion prospects.

06-19-07, 03:37 PM	#1
IrischKapitan Ensign Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Waiting for convoys of the coast of Donegal Posts: 227 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Was the XXI pointless??? By 1943 all hope of restoring power of the atlantic back to the Germans lay in the devolpment of the new electroboots. However by the wars end only two of the new XXI reached active service. I am suprised that the Kreigsmarine did not consider a radical modrinisation of the existing U-boats........ After the war the Royal Navy and the US Navy completly modrenised their boats adding schnorkels, sonar, a new sail and most importantly streamlining the boat. The Guppy series and the T class are good examples of this. The British T class achieved an Underwater speed of 15kn. This was a remarkable acheivement concdiering the design was already ten years old before the conversion began. The T class remained in service from 1938 to 1956 A much faster boat could be created, with little expence and little tecnical risk. The manufacture of one XXI boat took over 300,000 man hours, although it could take many more because of bombing raids and intruptions (eg. badly made parts) The VII boat was a sound design, and modifications could have being made on exsisting boats, therefore reducing the amount of time for new boats to be put in active service. Cosidering all of these I am confused why the Kreigsmarine opted for more costly, complicated and unreliable XXI (although it was an excellent design in theory). I think if the Kreigsmarine radically modrenised their U-Boat fleet in '43, the outcome in the Atlantic may have being different....

06-19-07, 04:03 PM	#2
Wilko Officer Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Aussie Posts: 249 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	I have often wondered what would have happened if Germany had had some sane top level leaders that were capable of making sound rational tactical descions, but 20/20 hindsight is a sweet thing isn't it. __________________ You take it easy... and have a nice day

06-19-07, 04:05 PM	#3
Penelope_Grey Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,893 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Electroboots? Are they made by Doc Martin's?:rotfl: __________________ I SURVIVED THE FIRST EVER SUBSIM WEREWOLF HUNT - and... I actually won the game for the humans too!

06-19-07, 04:10 PM	#4
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Real historians don't like "what ifs" :p I think it wasn't all that simple. Firstly, how exactly do you propose to upgrade Type VII's? Secondly, well, is the T class really the same thing? Some WWI boats could do 12kt underwater, but for how long? The only comparable upgrades that brought boats up to something like a XXI would be the postwar Guppy refits - and those would be rather extensive and quite hard to do in wartime. The Type VIIs were already stuffed. It would be very hard to upgrade them with anything - if you wanted to improve their performance, they'd need a lot more battery power. How do you get the battery power there? The fact is that the XXI did that by using the same exact batteries that the VIIs and IXs had, but it had a lot more of them. The XXI used a lot of the same technology as the other boats, just differently. Meanwhile the VIIs and IXs were already hopelessly obsolete. I think the Germans did an admirable job upgrading them, but they simply came from too old a design philosophy and had no extra room for upgrades. This for example as distinct from the US fleet boats which being a more sophisticated, new-school design with lots of spare room, simply had more capacity to be upgraded and were - and even then after the war and with rather extensive effort being expended on doing so. Likewise, building the XXIs in sections as they were was a lot more efficient than the VIIs. For all we know, it was perhaps more efficient than upgrading the older fleet. As for 'what if in 1943...' - well, that was a what-if indeed. The Battle of the Atlantic was very much hanging in balance in early 1943. With the situation having reached a fever pitch for both sides, there is no way the tactics, technology or production priority would be switched then and there. When it was, it was already too late and the U-boats lost the battle. The XXI was potentially a very dangerous design, but it showed exactly the problems with transitioning to new technology. Of course it was useless, but it wasn't useless by design. If anything was useless by design, it was Adolf's war plans - no XXI would've saved him :hmm: __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

06-19-07, 04:13 PM	#5
Penelope_Grey Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,893 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Though in seriousness, I wouldn't say they were pointless at all, they may have been crap in terms of reliability and use. But, they paved the way for what we have now, they were the first incarnation IMO and my brothers Opinion of the true submarine. Up till the launch of the XXI all the submarines of the world were surface vessels which had the ability to go underwater, they were not intended for extended underwater use, the XXI was. __________________ I SURVIVED THE FIRST EVER SUBSIM WEREWOLF HUNT - and... I actually won the game for the humans too!

06-19-07, 04:16 PM	#6
KeptinCranky Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,050 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Yep You can run 15 knots on the surface of water with them :p

06-19-07, 04:17 PM	#7
Kaleun Klink Seaman Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: la raza de Los Angeles Posts: 42 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	It seems the Wehrmacht as a whole, along with Hitler and his inner circle, emphasized the development and production of new "wonder weapons" at the expense of upgrading proven weapon systems. Witness not only the Type XXI but also the Me-262, the Ar-234, the Pzkw VIII Maus, the V-1 and V-2, etc. Some of these clearly were more successful than others, but all drained resources from the production and improvement of older -- but still effective --weapons systems. Maybe this addiction to new weapons systems was a sign of the Nazis' desperation as the war turned against them, maybe it was a manifestation of Hitler's own psychological makeup... It's worth nothing, though, that the Wehrmacht had wagered on new technologies and tactics before the war began -- e.g., the dive bomber and Blitzkrieg -- and that bet had paid off (at least initially). Perhaps in opting for innovative new weapons systems, rather than upgrading older systems, the Wehrmacht was just staying true to form. Discuss amongst yourselves... :hmm: __________________ Bernaaaaaard! Current games: UBOAT ... Victory at Sea Pacific ... Ye olde games: SH3 + GWX3 Gold ... SH4 plain vanilla ... Steam and Iron ... Jutland ... War Plan Pacific ... ...and many board games!

06-19-07, 04:22 PM	#9
Kaleun Klink Seaman Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: la raza de Los Angeles Posts: 42 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Hmmm... or perhaps CCIP's more technically-minded explanation is more to the point. Ah, I'm always one to go wool-gathering... Edit: Oh happy day, from Bilge Rat to Nub! And a much better-looking avatar! __________________ Bernaaaaaard! Current games: UBOAT ... Victory at Sea Pacific ... Ye olde games: SH3 + GWX3 Gold ... SH4 plain vanilla ... Steam and Iron ... Jutland ... War Plan Pacific ... ...and many board games!

06-19-07, 04:28 PM	#10
Redshirt Bosun Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 64 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You also have to take in consideration do you completely stop production of an existing type to make the modifications need to your current production lines? and then upgrade your whole fleet which could put them all out of action for several months at least in war time this often inst a very practical solution. More of the stock standard and less of the wizzy toys is often whats needed in war time... Germany kinda found that one out the hard way. And if I recall correctly Germany war industry wasn't even working around the clock 24 hours a day till early 43 when they had been at war since 1939! The Uboats failure imho was simply not enough boats at sea in 1939 to achieve the desired effect. __________________ Reds under the bed!

06-19-07, 04:30 PM	#11
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	For the Germans it was pointless cause the war ended! If the XXI was cruising the atlantic around 1941 onwards i think the battle would of been decided...:hmm: __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

06-19-07, 05:00 PM	#12
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Definately not pointless in terms of the development of the first true submarine. Before the XXI U-boats, S-Boats et al were simply submersibles rather than true submarines desinged from the start to operate almost entirely underwater. In terms of contriuting to the German war effort, well in that they made no significant contribution to that effort so in those terms you could conclude that they were pointless. If Doenitz could have had the number of boats he wanted to start the war with, at the start of the war, then I think the war would have had a very different ending. Its a moot point now though. The US, UK and the then USSR benefitted most from the technical advances contributed by the XXI.

06-19-07, 06:32 PM	#15
KeptinCranky Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,050 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	as for sticking to the oldies but goodies there's a few examples I could mention like the B52 (which has now been in active service for more than half the time we have powered flight as a species ),or USS Missouri and USS New Jersey and let's not forget they were still using t-34's in the Balkans in the early 1990s so yes, upgrading the type VII and IX would probably have been better (same goes for pzkfw. IV and VI) but I wouldn't want to have been the officer commanding the British Taskforce when 1 of those type XXIs surfaced right in the middle of them to surrender at the end of the war and they didn't know it was there , that definitely puts a dent in your promotion prospects.