R. Holbrooke: "Worse than even Vietnam"

Skybird · 05-11-07, 08:53 AM

Richard Holbrooke is considered to be a likely candidate for becoming foreign minster if the democrats win the next presidential elections. He fought in Vietnam and worked on the peace talks in Paris, later was the US ambassador to the UN.

Quote:

"Iraq already presents us with the worst situation internationally in modern American history. Worse even than Vietnam," Holbrooke added, noting he served in Saigon and worked on Vietnam in Washington and at the Paris peace talks. (...) "I never thought I would say anything was worse than Vietnam but Iraq, my friends, is worse than Vietnam," he said, voicing hope that the current U.S. offensive will succeed but saying the chances of this "are not high. (...) "We must assume that the next president will inherit the most difficult foreign policy challenges ever to land in the Oval Office on day one"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...051001396.html

almost identical: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/washi...=1&oref=slogin

His views of the chances for Afghanistan aren't much better:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...fghanistan.php

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...050101418.html

Three or four days ago Bush was being told bluntly by members of his own party that his time is running out and that his own party is loosing patience with him, some even already call for rebellion, saying in their election districts support for the war and Bush is below 5% - amongst traditional Republican voters.

I think it is possible that the Iraq war has not only vaporized the reputation of Bush's term, but will also cripple the reputation of the next government as well. If this were chess, I would say Bush gave away the Queen and a Rook all for nothing but a position with threatening holes in the Pawn's positional structure.

Anyone wanting to take over the match from him? Madness and a good ammount of masochism is precondition for the job.

I already feel pity for the next president. Whatever he/she will do, he/she will get it. Poor dog...

bradclark1 · 05-11-07, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Poor dog...

What does that mean? (As I sharpen my knife.)

Skybird · 05-11-07, 11:43 AM

Keep your knife down !

I just meant: "armes Schwein". Have I picked a wrong phrase? I mean whoever becomes next president, will get fire no matter what he does. Stay in Iraq, and the American and the international public will burn you. Pull out, and minor parts of the military, the complete ultra-right, the israel-lobby an parts of the republican voters will burn you. Internationally, you cannot win anything anyhow anyway. Whatever happens in Iraq while you stay, or pull out, people will point fingers at you. Whatever you do, they will give you fire. - So I say : "armes Schwein/poor dog."

My Japanese kitchen knifes are probably sharper anyway

Heibges · 05-11-07, 12:08 PM

The Vietnamese didn't hate us, they just wanted us out of their country. There are a fair share of n'er-do-wells in Iraq just there for the opportunity to kill Brits and Americans.

Arlen Spectre hit it right on the head when he said if the United States is still in Iraq when elections role around in 2008, there will be no Republican Party.

Skybird · 05-11-07, 12:59 PM

Vietnam was "just" a lost war, but beyond a hurt ego, America did not suffer strategical detoriations from it. It was hurting the ego, but it was not hurting to the naional interest. It was a tactical defeat, but not really a strategical defeat.

The Vietnamese never thought globally, concerning their ambitions. After the American retreat, they became a little bit mad, started a little megalomania in their region, and kept on playing until the Chinese showed them beyond doubt where their place is.

All this is very different with Iraq, and Afghanistan as well.

The Avon Lady · 05-15-07, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Pull out, and minor parts of the military, the complete ultra-right, the israel-lobby an parts of the republican voters will burn you.

What drivel!

One of the survey takers, Skybird?

BTW, regarding at least one Vietnam versus Iraq statistic:

robbo180265 · 05-15-07, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Pull out, and minor parts of the military, the complete ultra-right, the israel-lobby an parts of the republican voters will burn you.

What drivel!

One of the survey takers, Skybird?

BTW, regarding at least one Vietnam versus Iraq statistic:

Funny because I thought he had a point.

"The war in Iraq shares parallels with both the Vietnam War a generation ago and the Spanish-American War a century earlier—massive civilian deaths and torture are characteristics of all three imperial interventions."

See http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1295

Skybird · 05-15-07, 05:52 AM

Although Holbrooke has a past as soldier in Vietnam, without doubt he referred to Vietnam from a perspective of him being diplomatically involved in the negotiations about Vietnam, and a political perspective. And from that perspective he is right - the Iraq mess is far more difficukt to "solve" than Vietnam ever was. The stakes do not compare, and the strategical losses and foreign-political damages for the US (fro Iraq) are so much higher.

As Robbo indicated, the loss in civilian lifes, and the level of general brutality around, should not be ignored, too. As we know the estimations vary widely and reach as high as into the high hundreds of thousands.

Both wars also compare in terms of political interference with the needs of the military to conduct successful combat operations, and lacking efficiency of the military to successfully confront the enemy by conditions choosen by American forces. It is the enemy moving and acting at will, with the US unable to stop this, in both wars.

You illustrate yourself what I summed up as the "Israel-lobby", AL. Don't get me wrong in that, it is not meant as a cheap side-kick at Israelis, or Jews. But Israel has formulated and held a clearly perceivable position of wanting to keep the conflict burning, you yourself claim that it helps to reduce terrorism in the world by attracting all terrorists to Iraq, and keep them busy there so that they canot become active somewhere else - a strange theory, but you repeatedly did say so. Your nation does not hide that it seeks massive pressure and military support in confronting Iran, no matter how silly the chances, no matter the overall cost. Your nation has massive influence in America, and influences American foreign politics, and for quite some conservatives one-sided and often very biased support for Israel is a non-negotiable precondtiojn of all their political acting. - Well, all this I summed up as "Israel-lobby". We both know you will not agree with me and I will not agree with your different views on this. So it goes.

"Appeal for courage.org?" Courage cannot replace reason to pick wisely time, place and conditions. Violating this is what the failure in Iraq is basing upon: the mouth has been bigger than the brain.

Heibges · 05-15-07, 10:54 AM

I don't think Israel cared one way another about Iraq or Sadaam Hussein. They certainly weren't worried about any WMD's or they would have resolved the issue themselves like with the Iraqi Reactor and the Supergun.

Bush is 100% resonsible for the situation in Iraq.

This strong Jewish lobby in the United States just does not exist. I was reading an interesting article in the Jeruselum Post a few months back. It talked about the marked lack of support Israel receives from the largely very liberal Jewish community in the United States, and about the unlikely support Israel receives from the Christian Far Right in the United States.

August · 05-15-07, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Although Holbrooke has a past as soldier in Vietnam,

Holbrooke was never a soldier, sailor, airman or marine.

Tchocky · 05-15-07, 11:33 AM

From wiki:

1963-1966 - Vietnam: diplomatic service as a provincial representative for the Agency for International Development (AID), then staff assistant to Ambassadors'Maxwell Taylor and Henry Cabot Lodge.
1966 - 1968- White House: Vietnam staff of President Lyndon Johnson

Skybird · 05-15-07, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Although Holbrooke has a past as soldier in Vietnam,

Holbrooke was never a soldier, sailor, airman or marine.

Re-checked, and confirmed. I stand corrected.

He was member of Johnson's staff and was involved in creating the so-called Pentagon-Papers that proved that there were preparations for the war (Vietnam) long time in advance, and that the information of the public intentionally was misleading and manipulating. "Staff" and "Pentagon" left a wrong echo in my mind.

Note the difference in critcal tone in the German

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Holbrooke

and English wikipedia-entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Holbrooke.

05-11-07, 11:43 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Keep your knife down ! I just meant: "armes Schwein". Have I picked a wrong phrase? I mean whoever becomes next president, will get fire no matter what he does. Stay in Iraq, and the American and the international public will burn you. Pull out, and minor parts of the military, the complete ultra-right, the israel-lobby an parts of the republican voters will burn you. Internationally, you cannot win anything anyhow anyway. Whatever happens in Iraq while you stay, or pull out, people will point fingers at you. Whatever you do, they will give you fire. - So I say : "armes Schwein/poor dog." My Japanese kitchen knifes are probably sharper anyway __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-11-07, 12:08 PM	#4
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	The Vietnamese didn't hate us, they just wanted us out of their country. There are a fair share of n'er-do-wells in Iraq just there for the opportunity to kill Brits and Americans. Arlen Spectre hit it right on the head when he said if the United States is still in Iraq when elections role around in 2008, there will be no Republican Party. __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

05-11-07, 12:59 PM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Vietnam was "just" a lost war, but beyond a hurt ego, America did not suffer strategical detoriations from it. It was hurting the ego, but it was not hurting to the naional interest. It was a tactical defeat, but not really a strategical defeat. The Vietnamese never thought globally, concerning their ambitions. After the American retreat, they became a little bit mad, started a little megalomania in their region, and kept on playing until the Chinese showed them beyond doubt where their place is. All this is very different with Iraq, and Afghanistan as well. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-15-07, 05:52 AM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Although Holbrooke has a past as soldier in Vietnam, without doubt he referred to Vietnam from a perspective of him being diplomatically involved in the negotiations about Vietnam, and a political perspective. And from that perspective he is right - the Iraq mess is far more difficukt to "solve" than Vietnam ever was. The stakes do not compare, and the strategical losses and foreign-political damages for the US (fro Iraq) are so much higher. As Robbo indicated, the loss in civilian lifes, and the level of general brutality around, should not be ignored, too. As we know the estimations vary widely and reach as high as into the high hundreds of thousands. Both wars also compare in terms of political interference with the needs of the military to conduct successful combat operations, and lacking efficiency of the military to successfully confront the enemy by conditions choosen by American forces. It is the enemy moving and acting at will, with the US unable to stop this, in both wars. You illustrate yourself what I summed up as the "Israel-lobby", AL. Don't get me wrong in that, it is not meant as a cheap side-kick at Israelis, or Jews. But Israel has formulated and held a clearly perceivable position of wanting to keep the conflict burning, you yourself claim that it helps to reduce terrorism in the world by attracting all terrorists to Iraq, and keep them busy there so that they canot become active somewhere else - a strange theory, but you repeatedly did say so. Your nation does not hide that it seeks massive pressure and military support in confronting Iran, no matter how silly the chances, no matter the overall cost. Your nation has massive influence in America, and influences American foreign politics, and for quite some conservatives one-sided and often very biased support for Israel is a non-negotiable precondtiojn of all their political acting. - Well, all this I summed up as "Israel-lobby". We both know you will not agree with me and I will not agree with your different views on this. So it goes. "Appeal for courage.org?" Courage cannot replace reason to pick wisely time, place and conditions. Violating this is what the failure in Iraq is basing upon: the mouth has been bigger than the brain. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-15-07, 10:54 AM	#9
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I don't think Israel cared one way another about Iraq or Sadaam Hussein. They certainly weren't worried about any WMD's or they would have resolved the issue themselves like with the Iraqi Reactor and the Supergun. Bush is 100% resonsible for the situation in Iraq. This strong Jewish lobby in the United States just does not exist. I was reading an interesting article in the Jeruselum Post a few months back. It talked about the marked lack of support Israel receives from the largely very liberal Jewish community in the United States, and about the unlikely support Israel receives from the Christian Far Right in the United States. __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

05-15-07, 11:33 AM	#11
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	From wiki: 1963-1966 - Vietnam: diplomatic service as a provincial representative for the Agency for International Development (AID), then staff assistant to Ambassadors'Maxwell Taylor and Henry Cabot Lodge. 1966 - 1968- White House: Vietnam staff of President Lyndon Johnson __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]