Historical Question - Bow doors

ryuzu · 03-27-07, 11:02 AM

So I think more or less everyone knows now that the lack of simultaneous spread fire as in U-boats was not employed on USN Subs.

However, the issue of only opening one torpedo door at a time is still unclear. Some are reporting it as a bug.

But the question is, could USN subs of the era open multiple doors to allow the quick fire of torpedos multiple torpedos?

The only data I've found on the interweb talks about flooding the tubes, but no mention is made of how/when the outer doors were opened.... Something that may be related is that one document said that torpedos had pressure limits (no surprise I guess) implying that sailing around with the torpedo doors open would be a bad idea...

Is anyone here in touch with any of the museums that maintain a submarine collection (The USS Pampano for example) where we might get a definitive answer?

Thanks,

r.

akdavis · 03-27-07, 03:43 PM

Edward Beach recounting an action by the Seawolf in Submarine!:

Quote:

As Deragon squats before the rising periscope, Warder busies himself with last-minute preparations for firing, "Make ready bow tubes!" he orders. Theoretically the torpedo tube outer doors should have been opened and the tubes flooded long ago, but experience has shown that the longer a torpedo is in a flooded tube the less chance it will run properly.

That would seem to suggest they could be all be flooded and opened at the skipper's discretion.

OneTinSoldier · 03-27-07, 04:21 PM

Hi,

I'm not all the much up for reading technical info unless it's about computers. I have the movie 'Run Silent, Run Deep'. Can anyone tell me if it's very realistic? The following commands are issued in it and relayed by the crew to the approriate crew member that controls the torpedo tubes...

"Open outer doors on Tubes 1 and 2."
"Open outer doors on Tubes 3 and 4."

Then there would be a response relayed back... "Outer doors open on tubes 1 and 2." (or 3 and 4 as the case may be)

One thing that I'm pretty sure that's in the movie that's not in this game/sim is, once a torpedo is fired the sonar man will state...

"Torpedo 1 is running hot, straight, and normal sir."

Sailor Steve · 03-27-07, 04:26 PM

Yes, it was physically possible to open all the doors at once. They normally fired 3-fish salvoes at merchants, usually 5-to-10 seconds apart. The doors don't open fast enough to do that between shots, so they had to open two or more at once.

joea · 03-27-07, 04:55 PM

So, we should request this feature be put in a patch unless there already is a way to do that.

Tigrone · 03-27-07, 05:49 PM

Nothing prevents opening them all at once if needed. Sealion II did when she fired all 6 forward in a spread at Kongo.

Helen Keller · 03-27-07, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTinSoldier

Hi,

I'm not all the much up for reading technical info unless it's about computers. I have the movie 'Run Silent, Run Deep'. Can anyone tell me if it's very realistic?

Makes me want to try making a Burt Lancaster mod, why not have celebrity officers on the deck...

Takao · 03-27-07, 08:00 PM

Red Scorpion: The War Patrols of the USS Rasher, also makes note of a US submarine firing a spread of torps, opening the outer doors of all tubes that are to be used.

Now the submarine is maneuvered to fire a spread of three torpedoes by the bow tubes on a 90-degree track. The big transport is approaching, broadside on. The skipper makes his final shooting observation. "Open outer doors on One, Two, and Three! Stand by forward! Stand by One!" The periscope crosshairs are on the target's big, black stack.

Torpedo firing intervals were usually between 8 and 10 seconds. So, its my guess that the developers figure we can click tube 1, hit Q, fire tube 1, click tube 2, hit Q, etc.

WFGood · 03-27-07, 08:17 PM

Yes, they could open all of the outer doors. The just had to fire them individually.

edjcox · 03-27-07, 08:43 PM

If you've got the time reading the following will help you in your struggles to cope with SH4 and it's issues...

Direct to the question is the following excerpt

The afterbodies of Mark 14 and 15 torpedoes and modifications thereof, are tested to 135 lbs. per square inch. It is safe to fire these torpedoes at a depth of 180 feet measured to the keel with a tube pressure of 135 lbs. per square inch. This gives an effective ejection pressure of 40 lbs. per square inch. In S-class submarines, when firing below periscope depth, to insure necessary ejection velocity of the torpedo, two impulse tanks must be cross connected. It is believed that our present torpedoes will perform satisfactorily when subjected to pressures slightly in excess of the test pressure. However, it is recommended that these test pressures be not exceeded unless it is absolutely necessary to do so. When firing below periscope depth, be especially mindful of the possibility of flooding the torpedo afterbody if the tube outer door is left in the open position for too long a period of time

The doctrine set out includes many does and don't that the individual skipper can operate by or not but at least you'll have an understanding of the comtemprary issues of the time....

Enjoy http://www.subsowespac.org/blogs/the...2006_005.shtml

So outer doors were opened ahead of firing with the risk factor of torpedo flooding occuring with time exposure...

Takao · 03-27-07, 09:17 PM

We also have to remember that this is by Ubisoft, not Sonalyst.

You could ruin the torpedo if it was left in a flooded tube to long, that is correct. But we're talking minutes or tens of minutes in a flooded tube not seconds or tens of seconds it took to fire. And yes, in the heat of battle, it did happen that torpedoes were left, forgotten, in flooded tubes to long and were ruined. The solution to the aforementioned problem was to close and drain the tube. But we only have the option to close/open doors, and not flood/drain tubes and then open/close doors.

TheSatyr · 03-27-07, 09:30 PM

MkIVs were notorious for getting fouled up if left in a flooded tube too long. (MkIVs were too delicate which is why they had so many problems).

Early Mk18 electrics didn't take well to sitting in a flooded tube either. Something that was quickly fixed however. (Some sort of problem with the electric motor).

ReM · 03-28-07, 01:48 AM

We should be able to open all torpedo doors.....period!
I find the pauses for opening doors when switching between tubes very annoying.
The fact that US subs couldn't fire salvos like a U-boat or that doctrine called for as little flooded tube time as possble is completely irrelevant.
It is a bug, not a feature, let nobody tell you otherwise!

Skweetis · 03-28-07, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takao

We also have to remember that this is by Ubisoft, not Sonalyst.

Off topic, I'm sorry, but I have to say, that if Sonalyst ever made a WWII subsim, I would probably die of extacy.

Onkel Neal, start the petition

Grothesj2 · 03-28-07, 02:12 AM

If it was programmed to intentionally operate that way it's not a bug, just a historical inaccuarcy.

03-27-07, 11:02 AM	#1
ryuzu Navy Dude Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 171 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	Historical Question - Bow doors So I think more or less everyone knows now that the lack of simultaneous spread fire as in U-boats was not employed on USN Subs. However, the issue of only opening one torpedo door at a time is still unclear. Some are reporting it as a bug. But the question is, could USN subs of the era open multiple doors to allow the quick fire of torpedos multiple torpedos? The only data I've found on the interweb talks about flooding the tubes, but no mention is made of how/when the outer doors were opened.... Something that may be related is that one document said that torpedos had pressure limits (no surprise I guess) implying that sailing around with the torpedo doors open would be a bad idea... Is anyone here in touch with any of the museums that maintain a submarine collection (The USS Pampano for example) where we might get a definitive answer? Thanks, r.

03-27-07, 04:21 PM	#3
OneTinSoldier Sonar Guy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Denver, CO USA Posts: 382 Downloads: 46 Uploads: 0	Hi, I'm not all the much up for reading technical info unless it's about computers. I have the movie 'Run Silent, Run Deep'. Can anyone tell me if it's very realistic? The following commands are issued in it and relayed by the crew to the approriate crew member that controls the torpedo tubes... "Open outer doors on Tubes 1 and 2." "Open outer doors on Tubes 3 and 4." Then there would be a response relayed back... "Outer doors open on tubes 1 and 2." (or 3 and 4 as the case may be) One thing that I'm pretty sure that's in the movie that's not in this game/sim is, once a torpedo is fired the sonar man will state... "Torpedo 1 is running hot, straight, and normal sir." __________________ "Variable this is EasyRhino, do you copy? Over." Loud and clear EasyRhino. "Do we have a gig? Over." That's a Roger, we have a gig. Target is painted, start the music. "Roger that Variable. Into attack. Pickling target. Target is acquired and lit. LGB comin' down!" EasyRhino, circular error probability zero. Impact with High Order Detonation. Thank You, have a nice day.

03-27-07, 04:26 PM	#4
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Yes, it was physically possible to open all the doors at once. They normally fired 3-fish salvoes at merchants, usually 5-to-10 seconds apart. The doors don't open fast enough to do that between shots, so they had to open two or more at once. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-27-07, 05:49 PM	#6
Tigrone Commander Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Newport Beach, CA Posts: 470 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	Yes, a skipper could open or close them at will. Nothing prevents opening them all at once if needed. Sealion II did when she fired all 6 forward in a spread at Kongo. __________________ Commander Hiram Cassedy: "Tigrone has saved the Air Force and is now returning to Iwo Jima with 28 rescued zoomies." B-29 SNUFFY & THE SHIF'LESS SKONKS among them. I've a broom at the mast said he, for the broom is a sign for me, that wherever I go, I sweep the mighty sea.

03-27-07, 08:17 PM	#9
WFGood Electrician's Mate Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: high above the big blue Posts: 137 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes, they could open all of the outer doors. The just had to fire them individually. __________________

03-27-07, 04:55 PM	#5
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	So, we should request this feature be put in a patch unless there already is a way to do that.

03-27-07, 08:00 PM	#8
Takao Officer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 244 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Red Scorpion: The War Patrols of the USS Rasher, also makes note of a US submarine firing a spread of torps, opening the outer doors of all tubes that are to be used. Now the submarine is maneuvered to fire a spread of three torpedoes by the bow tubes on a 90-degree track. The big transport is approaching, broadside on. The skipper makes his final shooting observation. "Open outer doors on One, Two, and Three! Stand by forward! Stand by One!" The periscope crosshairs are on the target's big, black stack. Torpedo firing intervals were usually between 8 and 10 seconds. So, its my guess that the developers figure we can click tube 1, hit Q, fire tube 1, click tube 2, hit Q, etc.

03-27-07, 08:43 PM	#10
edjcox Engineer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Shang Gri La Posts: 219 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	Submarine Warfare Doctrine If you've got the time reading the following will help you in your struggles to cope with SH4 and it's issues... Direct to the question is the following excerpt The afterbodies of Mark 14 and 15 torpedoes and modifications thereof, are tested to 135 lbs. per square inch. It is safe to fire these torpedoes at a depth of 180 feet measured to the keel with a tube pressure of 135 lbs. per square inch. This gives an effective ejection pressure of 40 lbs. per square inch. In S-class submarines, when firing below periscope depth, to insure necessary ejection velocity of the torpedo, two impulse tanks must be cross connected. It is believed that our present torpedoes will perform satisfactorily when subjected to pressures slightly in excess of the test pressure. However, it is recommended that these test pressures be not exceeded unless it is absolutely necessary to do so. When firing below periscope depth, be especially mindful of the possibility of flooding the torpedo afterbody if the tube outer door is left in the open position for too long a period of time The doctrine set out includes many does and don't that the individual skipper can operate by or not but at least you'll have an understanding of the comtemprary issues of the time.... Enjoy http://www.subsowespac.org/blogs/the...2006_005.shtml So outer doors were opened ahead of firing with the risk factor of torpedo flooding occuring with time exposure... __________________ EJ Cox http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...jcox/usaCa.gif

03-27-07, 09:17 PM	#11
Takao Officer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 244 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	We also have to remember that this is by Ubisoft, not Sonalyst. You could ruin the torpedo if it was left in a flooded tube to long, that is correct. But we're talking minutes or tens of minutes in a flooded tube not seconds or tens of seconds it took to fire. And yes, in the heat of battle, it did happen that torpedoes were left, forgotten, in flooded tubes to long and were ruined. The solution to the aforementioned problem was to close and drain the tube. But we only have the option to close/open doors, and not flood/drain tubes and then open/close doors.

03-27-07, 09:30 PM	#12
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	MkIVs were notorious for getting fouled up if left in a flooded tube too long. (MkIVs were too delicate which is why they had so many problems). Early Mk18 electrics didn't take well to sitting in a flooded tube either. Something that was quickly fixed however. (Some sort of problem with the electric motor).

03-28-07, 01:48 AM	#13
ReM Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Brewsky, Galore Posts: 618 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	We should be able to open all torpedo doors.....period! I find the pauses for opening doors when switching between tubes very annoying. The fact that US subs couldn't fire salvos like a U-boat or that doctrine called for as little flooded tube time as possble is completely irrelevant. It is a bug, not a feature, let nobody tell you otherwise! __________________ Daddy cool

03-28-07, 02:12 AM	#15
Grothesj2 Medic Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 167 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If it was programmed to intentionally operate that way it's not a bug, just a historical inaccuarcy.