Quote:
Originally Posted by Catfish
a) I admit i have no idea what brexiters think now, and i refuse to call them brexiteers, because musketeers or buccaneers are a completely different breed, something brexiters surely have not.
They have been lied to, they believed it, they are too proud to admit that after having tons of evidence for the lies being sold to them, and they are turning at least England into a chaos (if Scotland and/or Ireland have the guts to leave the 'UK')
b) Ukip propaganda and the brexit project fear against immigrants (anyone remembers Farage's big poster?) sure influenced them, whether "UKIP went somewhere" or not. And UKIP, Farage and some others certainly knew how to spread propaganda of the lowest sort, and it hit home. In a way i would never have believed, this was a genuine surprise for me.
c) I do believe that brexit will damage the UK or at least England (if the rest breaks away), it is not only Cameron's papers published after the referendum (lmao) but also what is described in new publications, or even in Johnson's "Operation Yellowhammer" no deal scenario just posted by Steed. Really, what will they think of next, operation chastise again, The Blitz? Is there any non-war language left? Or is "yellowhammer" Johnson's frozen pee?
Yes there are tons of evidence of lies on the benefits of brexit, and i could prove it just by quoting pages from this thread, but all has been said about that ages ago. I admit i am losing my patience. It is obviously a nationalist Thing, it is clearly not about economy. And it defies all of what people like Cecil Lewis hoped and wrote for more than hundred years ago.
I have no idea what will be better in England (or the UK if it holds) after a brexit, you can tell me, and we will see.
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The Leave and Remain campaigns were so bad in places, I almost didn't vote at all.
The leavers have been mislead in part, as likely have remainers, we will see if the sky falls in as they predicted, i guess.
but i wont say 'lied to' because its unproven, we still don't have an outcome and who's to say that those who 'lied' didn't believe it them selves? false conviction is not the same as lying - another thing you and nobody else can really prove.
the Leave poster and NHS claim were propaganda, as are claims of empty supermarkets, and chlorinated chicken. Those kinds of stunts and claims only add to mess of confusion and divert peoples attention away from the more sensible points and principles. Would I use those examples to undermine a persons reasons for wanting to leave or remain? No - not unless they were attempting to press those exact points as valid reasons for there choice.
My bottom line for why i lean on the leave side is simple, our current democratic system free from the EU increases our right to self determination (as a people), while being an EU member restricts it.
I prefer to be ruled by electable democrats (and their lobbyist mates), and not unelectable bureaucrats (and their lobbyist mates). Sorry I'd just rather not take the chance with politicians who are virtually accountable to no one.
None of us know what will happen in the immediate aftermath or ten years down the line, after a no deal or a deal. we are all hedging bets on what we think will happen or what we hope will happen, nothing more.
And you are no exception.
I highly doubt you can prove anything by 'quoting from this thread'.
Its likely what you have is the same as the rest of us, speculation, links to media hit pieces that make various accusations (written by people no more honest than those they have in their cross hairs), and a certain amount of faith in your own narrative.
What we believe we we know and what we actually know are often not the same thing.
Only time will tell if you or I were right or not. So yes - we'll see indeed.