[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've looked and I can't find it. Probably my fault, but a link would be appreciated.

Actually the Germans lost 24 submarines to Allied submarines during the war. British subs knocked off the biggest score with 13 kills. Among the American kills, the last one was USS Besugo bagging U-183, Op Monsun boat, two weeks before the German surrender. The USS Flounder also scored another OP Monsun U-boat, U-537. Sub vs sub was very one-sided an favor of the Allies.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

As for taunting, I took it to mean that US boats would be helpless against British and American ASW.

Interesting. I didn't read it that way. That is a much more intriguing angle. The Germans made a huge mistake using U-boats in WWII. They sent their boats out into a sea completely controlled by the Allies, beyond the range of any air support. Therefore, with the American jeep carrier hunter-killer groups, no diesel-electric sub could possibly survive, neither German nor American. Even the Type XXI would have been doomed (if it worked properly, a fact never established). So as I've said before, American subs could not win the German war. Subs were not appropriate for their war at all. They had a key but it didn't fit the lock.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Wrong. Plain and simple, wrong. German destroyers were equipped with depth charges, and active sonar (S-Gërat), as well as hydrophones. Several attacks were made on suspected submarines. Oil slicks were sighted on more than one occasion, but no actual confirmation. I'm not saying the Germans were anywhere near the Allies' capacity. They were in fact far behind. But "NO ASW capacity at all! Zero. Zilch. Nada."? Yes, they did.*

The problem was that other than the Med, Germans had very little area to run their destroyers in. The German navy was completely inexperienced in ASW and had no demonstrated capability. You can have a garage full of tools but that doesn't make you a mechanic. Not a single kill is evidence of no capability.

Edit: although they didn't sink any submarines, the only German warship ever to operate in the Med, the destroyer ZG3 did induce the HMS Splendid to surrender and its crew scuttled the sub. A quote from Wikipedia which proves both points, some limited success and no ability to use the 19 total destroyers the Germans deployed in WWII. Edit: 19 plus 22=41 German DDs total. The US gave 50 to the British before the war even started!

The Greek destroyer Vasilefs Georgios was captured in damaged condition after the fall of Greece, then repaired in Greece with assistance from the Germaniawerft and commissioned by the Kriegsmarine as the ZG3 or the Hermes. She was the only major Kriegsmarine surface ship in the Mediterranean Sea during World War II, and she was involved in escorting convoys to North Africa and the Aegean Islands.
Hermes detected and depth charged the Royal Navy submarine HMS Splendid off Capri, Italy, on 21 April 1943, forcing it to surrender; Splendid was scuttled by her crew. Hermes was damaged by air attacks off Tunisia. Hermes had to be scuttled in La Goulette, Tunis on 7 May 1943.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Sorry, but to me this seems opinionated and very much an overreaction. Of course that's just my opinion.

I must admit I'm never hesitant to share a room with a strong opinion. Maybe I just worded it wrong. <rewind....> How is a strategy of sinking ships of several dozen nations other than the one you are at war with, operating on a huge ocean with submarines suited for coastal defense only and of a drastically outdated design, consuming Germany's best resources and manpower in a submarine war that sunk less than 5% of Allied shipping possibly justified?

Put all those wasted resources into land based military capability. How many planes can you make with the materials used in a single U-boat? How many tanks? Machine guns? Keep in mind that construction of a U-boat took much more time than constructing a ****e-Wulf. Or a hundred ****e-Wulfs. Good thing this is Subsim, not AvSim! Think of the incredible skill and fortitude of the U-boat crews. What would they have accomplished on land? They were the best of the best in the German military.

Then reflect that without U-boats there wouldn't have to have been a war with America and the war against the British might well have been avoided too. Yes, this was all in the hands of a madman, but theoretically, without the U-Boat the Germans could have pursued more fruitful means of conquest. They would have had a much wider range of options available both militarily and diplomatically. That would have been bad. It's tempting to say it was a tragic waste, but mistakes in the pursuit of evil are not tragic but fortuitous.

And then there were the ice cream machines!